renter's insurance for studio gear?

[jasonbmerrill]

a different thread made me think about this --

i estimate the value of what i have to be 10k -- now this is peanuts for a projects studio, but what do i do to insure it? I dont want to get business insurance, as i am in college, and probably not going to make enough to justify it.

what about renter's insurance?

any ideas?

[TexRoadkill]

You just have to call some insurance companies and see what they will cover. Most have limits on electronic stuff but since your value is so low you might be okay on a typical policy.

If you want your gear insured while going to gigs and stuff you will need to get what is called an "inland marine" policy. They are designed for covering tools and assets while on the road.

[jasonbmerrill]

ahh cool about the inland marine thing.

will look into it.

[arcaxis]

Ask your insurance company about a "rider" on your renters policy. I've got one on my homeowners policy for my gear. They'll likely need a list of the stuff with serial numbers and initial cost.

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by arcaxis

Ask your insurance company about a "rider" on your renters policy. I've got one on my homeowners policy for my gear. They'll likely need a list of the stuff with serial numbers and initial cost.

Exactly...they'll usually let you take out a rider on your stuff. It's a very good idea...all it takes is one disaster and it's all gone.

Frank

[NL5]

One caveat, if you are charging people, and they find out, your insurance will be voided. Even if you make $1........

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by NL5

One caveat, if you are charging people, and they find out, your insurance will be voided. Even if you make $1........

Yep. That's true. If they find out you made one dollar from that equipment, you're screwed. And don't think they're not going to google you if you put in a $40K claim for audio gear.

[NL5]

Originally Posted by JTC111

And don't think they're not going to google you if you put in a $40K claim for audio gear.

Damn the internets!

....and for those that don't know, business insurance is WAY more expensive.

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by NL5

Damn the internets!

....and for those that don't know, business insurance is WAY more expensive.

Cash only, no pictures allowed, and if you credit me in your liner notes the price is tripled!!!

[aitikin]

Originally Posted by NL5

One caveat, if you are charging people, and they find out, your insurance will be voided. Even if you make $1........

Now I wonder, is this still true if you were to merely store the equipment at the apartment/house you are renting and record on location?

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by aitikin

Now I wonder, is this still true if you were to merely store the equipment at the apartment/house you are renting and record on location?

If you're using the gear to generate any income at all, then it's not covered by homeowners insurance. I've never heard any distinction being made as to the physical location that money is being made.

For example, if I record a cd in my home studio and then sell it only on the road, the gear in my home studio was used to generate income. Additionally, if you use the gear you have on the road and record your band, then sell the recordings, the gear isn't covered by your homeowner's policy. In both of those situations, you're going to need business insurance.

If there's some other legal cheaper method of protecting your gear, I'd love to hear about it.

Also, ignorance is not gonna get your gear covered in the event something happens. It's your job to ask your insurance agent if your actually covered. Chances are, once you inquire, the agent will ask you if you use the gear to earn any money. But even if he doesn't, if you put in a claim and they find out you DID earn money off that gear, you're screwed and you have no defense that will work to get your claim paid.

So the bottom line is this: figure out if they can somehow prove you made money. If they can, assume they'll be able to do it. They pay a lot of people a lot of money to catch people lying in order to not pay claims.

[MOFO Pro]

I would also suggest asking about about replacement value coverage, I forget exactly what it's called... but it prevents the insurance company from depreciating your equipment from age or use... you get to replace the equipment at current market prices... It's only a few bucks more... and not usually offered without requesting it... I had renters insurance at one time and got a bunch of stuff stolen from the garage... what a nightmare, but I made out pretty well in the end

[NL5]

Originally Posted by JTC111

If there's some other legal cheaper method of protecting your gear, I'd love to hear about it.

You and I both! My studio is just an over-glorified hobby. But I do get paid sometimes. I have too much invested to take the risk of having just homeowners. Tough decision though, as it's a LOT more money for business insurance.....

Originally Posted by JTC111

Also, ignorance is not gonna get your gear covered in the event something happens.

Good advice!

Originally Posted by MOFO Pro

I would also suggest asking about about replacement value coverage

More good advice. That's what I have, and it's called replacement value insurance, and wasn't much more than standard insurance.

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by NL5

You and I both! My studio is just an over-glorified hobby. But I do get paid sometimes. I have too much invested to take the risk of having just homeowners. Tough decision though, as it's a LOT more money for business insurance.....

Yeah, but at some point the risk just isn't worth it. I figured out last night that I have about $42K in gear and instruments. That would be a huge hit to take if the house burned down.

In my own situation, I figure I'm currently covered because I haven't made any money off the gear I currently own. I've bought all of it, with the exception of one guitar, AFTER the 2002 release of my cd (I didn't have a home studio at that time). But once I finish and release the next one, I'll have to make the adjustment.

[NL5]

Originally Posted by JTC111

Yeah, but at some point the risk just isn't worth it.

I hope I was clear on that - I DO have business insurance - I'd rather be on the safe side - and I have quite a bit wrapped up in my studio - especially at "replacement" value.

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by NL5

I hope I was clear on that - I DO have business insurance - I'd rather be on the safe side - and I have quite a bit wrapped up in my studio - especially at "replacement" value.

I'm curious, how much more is the business insurance? double? triple?

[aitikin]

Originally Posted by JTC111

If you're using the gear to generate any income at all, then it's not covered by homeowners insurance.

I'm not saying using the gear to record live and then mix at home. Most of what I do are live recordings for classical stuff and all I do is burn them a copy right after, all on location. So if my apartment were broken into and someone stole my gear, how would that be any different than insurance covering a construction worker's drill punch that costs an arm and a leg that he personally owns but uses on the job site all the time? Or a businessman who's important information on his laptop got stolen out of his apartment? I'm not quite sure I see a difference in those situations.

Originally Posted by JTC111

Also, ignorance is not gonna get your gear covered in the event something happens. It's your job to ask your insurance agent if your actually covered.

Thankfully the only thing I've made money off of is using other people's equipment.

Originally Posted by JTC111

So the bottom line is this: figure out if they can somehow prove you made money. If they can, assume they'll be able to do it. They pay a lot of people a lot of money to catch people lying in order to not pay claims.

The question is, how can they prove it? I mean, sure, if you have a bunch of groups list they recorded with you, they can trace the checks, but for me, I work in a recording studio where I use none of my own gear. How can they prove that it was through my own gear and not the studio's, or more importantly, how can I prove that it's through that studio's and not my gear?

I'm pretty sure that I'll be calling my agent to find out what exactly the line is that I have to stay behind...

[MOFO Pro]

Originally Posted by aitikin

So if my apartment were broken into and someone stole my gear, how would that be any different than insurance covering a construction worker's drill punch that costs an arm and a leg that he personally owns but uses on the job site all the time? Or a businessman who's important information on his laptop got stolen out of his apartment? I'm not quite sure I see a difference in those situations.

Wouldn't be any different... these would not be covered either...

When the insurance company inquired as to any profit made in the use of the claimed equipment... I sent them a sample disc of my work... the check was in the mail the next day.

[NL5]

Originally Posted by JTC111

I'm curious, how much more is the business insurance? double? triple?

My wife does all our insurance, but I think it went something like this -

We had homeowners, and I had a small studio that was 100% a personal studio. Started getting more gear, so we decided to start doing some "side" work. I thought I better be safe and get a business license, and we called the insurance company and added a home office/home business rider. It was very cheap. Like, less than $40 a year for the additional coverage. Now, the rider itself didn't cover much, but our regular homeowners covered the rest, and we were a bit over insured to start with. Well, fast forward a year, and we got renewal papers, and a copy of the policy. For some strange reason, I decided to read through it. When I got to the rider, it sounded to me like we weren't really insured like she said we were. So, I had the wife call, and the insurance lady said we were covered, but she'd double check just to make sure. Well, she calls back and says she made a HUGE mistake. Not only were we not covered, but they couldn't even offer any insurance for the studio gear. So, we had to shop around for business insurance. It ended up being about $1300 a year - and that doesn't count homeowners.

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by aitikin

I'm not saying using the gear to record live and then mix at home.

I was just giving you a couple of examples.

Originally Posted by aitikin

Most of what I do are live recordings for classical stuff and all I do is burn them a copy right after, all on location. So if my apartment were broken into and someone stole my gear, how would that be any different than insurance covering a construction worker's drill punch that costs an arm and a leg that he personally owns but uses on the job site all the time? Or a businessman who's important information on his laptop got stolen out of his apartment? I'm not quite sure I see a difference in those situations.

I agree with you in that it doesn't seem to me any different than those cases, but the reality is that the insurance industry does treat audio gear differently.

Originally Posted by aitikin

Thankfully the only thing I've made money off of is using other people's equipment.

The question is, how can they prove it? I mean, sure, if you have a bunch of groups list they recorded with you, they can trace the checks, but for me, I work in a recording studio where I use none of my own gear. How can they prove that it was through my own gear and not the studio's, or more importantly, how can I prove that it's through that studio's and not my gear?

I'm not a lawyer nor an investigator but insurance companies don't make tons of money by being stupid enough to get outfoxed by an audio guy. If you think you're clever enough to fool them, go ahead. You're not risking my gear, you're only risking your own. But consider this, let's say the worst happens, you have a major fire and you put in a claim that includes $25,000 worth of audio gear. The insurance company asks you if you were using it to earn income and you lie to them and say you were not. If you get caught, not only are you not going to get reimbursed for the gear, but now you've committed insurance fraud because you tried to collect on gear that wasn't covered by lying about it. At that point, I wouldn't be surprised if the trade-off for the insurance company not pressing criminal charges and taking you to court will be disallowing most, if not all, of the legitimate part of your claim.

Worth the risk to save a few hundred bucks? Probably not.

Originally Posted by aitikin

I'm pretty sure that I'll be calling my agent to find out what exactly the line is that I have to stay behind...

Umm... if you have a musical agent, then you're fucked before you even begin. There's their proof. Good luck convincing a judge or jury that you're a professional musician but none of the audio gear you own has anything to do with that fact. Remember, the burden of proof is going to fall on you. The insurance company is simply going to deny your claim then you'll have to hire a lawyer to prove them wrong in doing so.

Lastly, I wouldn't be taking insurance coverage advice from a musical agent if it contradicts what my insurance company is telling me. Your agent isn't going to be writing you the check when the smoke clears.

[mikeh]

I pay about $225 for $60,000 of gear on an Inland Marine Rider. This covers the gear in my home, at a gig, etc. While this would not come close to covering all the gear I have, if I lost everything in a fire I would likely not replace everything. I've accomulated a lot of gear over a lot of years (I have waaaay too many guitars/amps and too much recording hardware) a lot of my stuff is older (but not old enough to be valuable). I would simply replace a couple guitars and go the software recording route. I would take a fairly large financial hit if I lost everything in a fire (true replacement cost would be $100,000 plus) - but it would not bankrupt me

Very few personal lines insurance carriers (American Family, etc. etc) offer professional coverage and as indicated, non-professional coverage would be voided if you generate any income. Non-professional coverage normally has limits on electronic/computer equipment that would not cover even relatively humble home studios.

I think anyone who has several thousand $$$$$ in gear should look for "professional" insurance coverage.

[pohaku]

Originally Posted by JTC111

Umm... if you have a musical agent, then you're fucked before you even begin. There's their proof. Good luck convincing a judge or jury that you're a professional musician but none of the audio gear you own has anything to do with that fact. Remember, the burden of proof is going to fall on you. The insurance company is simply going to deny your claim then you'll have to hire a lawyer to prove them wrong in doing so.

Lastly, I wouldn't be taking insurance coverage advice from a musical agent if it contradicts what my insurance company is telling me. Your agent isn't going to be writing you the check when the smoke clears.

I think he's talking about an insurance agent, not a music agent.

[Freudian Slip]

Originally Posted by aitikin

Now I wonder, is this still true if you were to merely store the equipment at the apartment/house you are renting and record on location?

Yes. There is more risk taking you stuff out and about than having it sit in your bedroom. That is if I understand you correctly.
Also the average person would not have the gear you may have. This is going to bring up questions....

F.S.

[Freudian Slip]

Originally Posted by NL5

My wife does all our insurance, but I think it went something like this -

We had homeowners, and I had a small studio that was 100% a personal studio. Started getting more gear, so we decided to start doing some "side" work. I thought I better be safe and get a business license, and we called the insurance company and added a home office/home business rider. It was very cheap. Like, less than $40 a year for the additional coverage. Now, the rider itself didn't cover much, but our regular homeowners covered the rest, and we were a bit over insured to start with. Well, fast forward a year, and we got renewal papers, and a copy of the policy. For some strange reason, I decided to read through it. When I got to the rider, it sounded to me like we weren't really insured like she said we were. So, I had the wife call, and the insurance lady said we were covered, but she'd double check just to make sure. Well, she calls back and says she made a HUGE mistake. Not only were we not covered, but they couldn't even offer any insurance for the studio gear. So, we had to shop around for business insurance. It ended up being about $1300 a year - and that doesn't count homeowners.

Yep. Those home office endorsements are for incidental things you may bring home from work to work on and things like that. If you have people coming into your home and you are charging them for it you need a business policy. The liability is where the money comes in.

I have seen alot of agents sell that endorsement for all kinds of things that it won't cover. One lady was running a nail salon out of her house

Inland marine (a commercial coverage) will cover gear/tools/etc. out and about or at your home, but that is all it does. It provides no liability for if someone comes to your house for business and gets hurt or sues you because of the final product.

F.S.

[mikeh]

Originally Posted by Freudian Slip

Inland marine (a commercial coverage) will cover gear/tools/etc. out and about or at your home, but that is all it does. It provides no liability for if someone comes to your house for business and gets hurt or sues you because of the final product.

F.S.

This is a very important point!!!! If someone has a basement studio and a "client" falls down the stairs and is injured - the liability coverage on a home owner policy would not cover this (since it is business use in the home) - so in addition to an Inland Marine Policy to cover the property (gear) a person with a home or other assets that they would not want to risk in a law suit, should also consider business liability coverage.

I personally don't carry it (it's much more expensive than property insurance)and I'm always thinking about it when people are hauling gear down the stairs I figure if anyone falls down the stairs, I'll shoot them and then claim they wre trying to steal my gear