Harsh Sounds in mix

[Chris Jahn]

When i track, either while im in the room dialing in sounds, or behind the table listening to the monitors, i dont really hear harsh, grindy frequencies. But when i mix they creep out, it seems to come from the guitars and cymbals, which is the first place you would think they would come from.

with guitar, i have discovered two things that are slowly helping me, micing dead center on the cone, and pulling at 6khz, that one especially. but the drums i cant seem to pull it out without killing other things i want to hear, and the guitars arnt perfect even with those little revalations.

Im starting to think that this over all "grind" is just digital and im stuck with it to an extent, any thoughts?

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by Chris Jahn

When i track, either while im in the room dialing in sounds, or behind the table listening to the monitors, i dont really hear harsh, grindy frequencies. But when i mix they creep out, it seems to come from the guitars and cymbals, which is the first place you would think they would come from.

with guitar, i have discovered two things that are slowly helping me, micing dead center on the cone, and pulling at 6khz, that one especially. but the drums i cant seem to pull it out without killing other things i want to hear, and the guitars arnt perfect even with those little revalations.

Im starting to think that this over all "grind" is just digital and im stuck with it to an extent, any thoughts?

Instead of trying to "pullit out" by eq-ing...How much time and effort do you really put into moving mics around...moving the drums from where they are, etc.....You have to do a lot of monitoring BEFORE you ever get anywhere near the RECORD button.

How about your gain staging????????????

But, don't blame it on "digital".

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by Chris Jahn

with guitar, i have discovered two things that are slowly helping me, micing dead center on the cone

Just to clarify, are you talking dead center on the dustcap dome or are you talking miking the voice coil gap, which would be the center of the cone?

If you're actually talking about miking the dome, the reason you're dropping out the high freqs is because be dome is not designed to reproduce high freqs and any that are coming from there will be incredibly distorted. You might want to try as an option pointing you mic at the outer edge of the cone angled out. This should give you an even warmer sound, but with less crap in it than the dustcap usually gives you (YMMV, this varies by cab and mic). (Also, have you tried turning down the treble on your head or even on your git? )

With the cymblas, what mics are you getting this with and where are they located? Are you talking about LDCs being used as overheads, or are you close-miking the cymblas with something else, etc? I'm with Rami, you need to look at mic usage and technique here.

The fact that you're recording digital probably has nothing to do with it, unless your converters are REALLY corrupted.

The fact that you say it comes out on mixing makes me highly suspect the possible misuse/overuse of compression, or the use of EQ and compression in the improper order, or both.

First - after fixing the mic techniques as described above - I'd take the offending frequencies and attack them surgically but gently on each track with narrow Q parametric EQ *before you compress*. Then when you do compress, make sure you're no overdoing it.

G.

[Chris Jahn]

thanks, good tips, unfortunately im in chicago on business so i cant try some of this till i get home next week.

I understand whats being said about micing, and some of it i will try, but i think its more what glen said about over compression, that might be one of my issues. because like i said in the first post, i dont really here these things on my "raw" tracks, its wehn i start to push things in the mixing stage.

But its all worth a shot, ive tried off axis micing before with mixed resualts. but center on the cone (dust cap i guess) is working best for me, but ill give some other posistions a try, i guess i just need to experiment more.

At the very least, does it make sense that pulling at 6k would solve some harshness issues? Are my ears at least getting a little better, is that a freqencie on a guitar that would pull out nasty sounds?

As for signal chain, i compress first then i EQ, that sound right?

If you want to check out two tracks to hear some of these issues (and a lot more id suspect) i have a post in the mp3 clinic under "havnt recorded in a while, hows this", check it out and give me more feedback

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by Chris Jahn

unfortunately im in chicago on business so i cant try some of this till i get home next week.

UNforunately?!?! Hey, what's wrong with Chicago??? ( j/k, welcome to our great city. You downtown or in the suburbs somewhere?)

Originally Posted by Chris Jahn

At the very least, does it make sense that pulling at 6k would solve some harshness issues? Are my ears at least getting a little better, is that a freqencie on a guitar that would pull out nasty sounds?

Probably a bit of both. There's nothing magical abut 6k exactly, but the upper mids in the area between 3.5k and 6.5k (give or take) is certianly a troublesome area, because, yeah, overload in those frequencies does indeed sound harsh, also because there is so much overlap of instruments and vocals there - there's a lot of energy being dumped into those frequencies, and also because that happens to be the frequency range to which the human ear is the most sensitive.

Originally Posted by Chris Jahn

As for signal chain, i compress first then i EQ, that sound right?

While there is no one single right answer to that, here's the way I personally prefer to look at it:

FixEQ --> compression --> TweakEQ

The idea here is to get the sound right first, including fixing whatever frequencies will give the compressor problems so that the compressor is giving you a better sound and not a poorer one. Then after compression you can go back and make some small EQ tweaks to what's left just to fine tune and polish the remaining sound.

IME (OMMV) this often winds up on a sweeter and easier to deal with result than letting the compression bring out the bad stuff and then trying to fix it after the fact with excessive EQ.

(OH, and BTW, go back to your H.S. geometry and remind yourself of what shapes cones have ... again, just teasing a little bit , but it's important to know when you're reading about amp miking techniques that the center part of the loudspeaker that's shaped like a dome is NOT part of the speaker cone...and in fact is not even part of the driver making the sound (except to a very minor percentage.) One of the main reasons miking the dustcap dome sounds smoother to you is likely because you are actually capturing the cone off-axis when you do that.)

G.

[masteringhouse]

In addition to moving one mic, try recording with two mics. One aimed at center and the other angled at 45 degrees from center. Take both and blend. Usually you will want the capsules next to each other so that there are not phase issues, but then sometimes a little phasing can create a cool sound.

Once you're comfortable with two you may even want to try three or more. Try adding one behind the cab on a combo amp (also try reversing polarity on this) as well as room mics.

Sometimes less is more, sometimes less is less.

[Chris Jahn]

Im very much downtown, im at the holiday inn across from the Merchandise Mart on Orleans. I design, build, and install custom trade show exibits, as well as showroom instalations and custon store fixtures. im here for the stylemax show.

i come four times a year, i actually spend over a month a year here, so im getting to know the city fairly well. its no nyc, but its a nice place. A little homoginized for my taste, but i guess a clean city is a nice change of pace.

anyway, ya'll who have responded should check out the two songs i have up in the clinic, over a hundred people have checked it out, but i have few comments, id like some more feedback, especially relating to the subjects in this thread.

the title is "havnt recored for a while, hows this?" which is true, i bought a house and was just to caught up in the chaos, but im getting back into it hard.