Getting nice, up front toms with minimal mics

[thebigcheese]

I'm really liking using as few mics as possible on the drums, but I can't get my toms to pop out like I'd like them to. Right now, I'm recording in an untreated basement (with the exception of some couches in one corner and some mattress pads in two other corners) using a D6 for the kick and a Nady something or other (from the drum kit) on the snare, just outside the hole on the side. For overheads, I'm using matched X-Ts from Naiant, set up with Glyn Johns method. I know that omnis aren't ideal in a not-so-great room, but I'm getting a decent sound for the cymbals, snare, and kick. I really don't want to stick mics on all the toms, but I'm just not getting a nice tom sound now. I can't really move the drums, either, even though they are in a corner... I'm looking to get a sound like on the Rush album "Moving Pictures", or basically a modern rock sound, even though they usually mic toms (as I understand). Any suggestions?

[drossfile]

Originally Posted by thebigcheese

I'm really liking using as few mics as possible on the drums, but I can't get my toms to pop out like I'd like them to. Right now, I'm recording in an untreated basement (with the exception of some couches in one corner and some mattress pads in two other corners) using a D6 for the kick and a Nady something or other (from the drum kit) on the snare, just outside the hole on the side. For overheads, I'm using matched X-Ts from Naiant, set up with Glyn Johns method. I know that omnis aren't ideal in a not-so-great room, but I'm getting a decent sound for the cymbals, snare, and kick. I really don't want to stick mics on all the toms, but I'm just not getting a nice tom sound now. I can't really move the drums, either, even though they are in a corner... I'm looking to get a sound like on the Rush album "Moving Pictures", or basically a modern rock sound, even though they usually mic toms (as I understand). Any suggestions?

while i've never used omnis for OHs (only various cardioid sdcs), i can tell you that treatment makes all the difference in the world, and if it mattered that much with cardioids, it's bound to make an even bigger difference with omnis.

before i treated, i was using pearl exports with a spaced pair of cad icm417s and every tom miked. the toms always sounded buried and blurry (8 mics total).

then i went to tama starclassics with mxl 603s in recorderman setup, with a d6 on kick, 57 on snare, and no toms miked (4 mics total). the toms sounded only marginally better.

it was the treatment that went up afterwards that really brought the toms into focus. flutter echo and standing waves, which are largely imperceptible problems (on tape anyway) until you hear the difference, became a thing of the past.

you can check out the final results here (this is totally raw, no eq or effects):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDBEY-TKTOY

[thebigcheese]

Those do sound pretty nice. Just out of curiosity, how do you have your d6 positioned for the kick? I've managed to EQ it to sound mostly like how I want, but something about the sound of the click isn't quite right to me...

I figured I'd have to look into treatment eventually, but I don't really know how to go about it when my drums are still a) in my mom's basement or b) at a house I will be out of in a year (if they even fit there). And it's so expensive... I had no idea it could make that much difference, but I guess it makes sense when you consider that you don't have to deal with interference from sound waves bouncing around.

[errr314]

Rush rules.....period.

[thebigcheese]

Originally Posted by errr314

Rush rules.....period.

Thanks, Mr. Helpful.

[drossfile]

Originally Posted by thebigcheese

Those do sound pretty nice. Just out of curiosity, how do you have your d6 positioned for the kick? I've managed to EQ it to sound mostly like how I want, but something about the sound of the click isn't quite right to me...

I figured I'd have to look into treatment eventually, but I don't really know how to go about it when my drums are still a) in my mom's basement or b) at a house I will be out of in a year (if they even fit there). And it's so expensive... I had no idea it could make that much difference, but I guess it makes sense when you consider that you don't have to deal with interference from sound waves bouncing around.

i have the d6 inside the kick, about 8" from the beater and off-center, but in my final mixes, i usually bump around 1.5k to bring out some more click.

i hear you on your treatment dilemma. you really need your own space to take that plunge. it wasn't until i bought a house that i got serious about putting together a dedicated studio space. i had a lot of apartments where the living room was all i had for recording.

but that aside, treatment really isn't that expensive--i did all mine with oc703 and muslin with minimal hardware. the 703 was the most expensive component, and i think i got it all done for around $300. see my other youtube vid for a look at all the panels (i only have 2 up).

this is what i used as my starting point, and i tweaked it to my needs and "cheapened" it accordingly (hats off to bubbagump):

http://audiominds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3320

[RAMI]

I like Jello.


(Sorry, just trying to compete with the RUSH dude).

[thebigcheese]

Hmm... $300 isn't so bad. I wouldn't use omnis in this room except that the only cardiods I have for overheads have no low end to them (they're also from the Nady pack). I guess that would be fine b/c I wouldn't have to worry about the kick getting into those tracks as much, but I wouldn't get the same definition from the toms, either... I'll try to do some comparison tracks for myself in the coming days, but I can post them up, too, so you can see what I'm talking about. Actually, one that I have right now is here:

http://www.nickglover.com/April.mp3

There isn't a whole lot of tom work, (it's mostly all in the one section), but you can see what I mean. Granted, I cut out most of the lows from the OHs to clear things up a bit, but still.

[thebigcheese]

Originally Posted by RAMI

I like Jello.


(Sorry, just trying to compete with the RUSH dude).

I don't know if it counts if you're doing it on purpose

[errr314]

Ok I have not read squat in this thread .... I saw a link to an mp3 and the mention of RUSH!!!!!!! I like Jello Pudding Pops.

Now...I have have had a few beers..... that being said..... I will be right right back. I need a smoke. By the way.... April.mp3 ... very nice. Lovely guitar. Nice drums and I see what you mean about the toms sounding far off..... hmm...need to concentrate.....


Man...that is a cool tune....I might PM you to see if I can mess with your tracks. Word!

[thebigcheese]

Originally Posted by errr314

Ok I have not read squat in this thread .... I saw a link to an mp3 and the mention of RUSH!!!!!!! I like Jello Pudding Pops.

Now...I have have had a few beers..... that being said..... I will be right right back. I need a smoke. By the way.... April.mp3 ... very nice. Lovely guitar. Nice drums and I see what you mean about the toms sounding far off..... hmm...need to concentrate.....


Man...that is a cool tune....I might PM you to see if I can mess with your tracks. Word!

I don't know if you'd really want to mess with the current tracks. Aside from maybe the drums (the toms sort of work in this song, but my OCD might kick in and make me rerecord), the tracks are very rough and I plan on rerecording, especially since I did a bit of tempo changing. If you want, though, I can still send them Thanks for the comments, too. It's one of my bands first songs from a couple years ago, actually. We just never got around to making a decent recording until now.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by drossfile

while i've never used omnis for OHs (only various cardioid sdcs), i can tell you that treatment makes all the difference in the world, and if it mattered that much with cardioids, it's bound to make an even bigger difference with omnis.

before i treated, i was using pearl exports with a spaced pair of cad icm417s and every tom miked. the toms always sounded buried and blurry (8 mics total).

then i went to tama starclassics with mxl 603s in recorderman setup, with a d6 on kick, 57 on snare, and no toms miked (4 mics total). the toms sounded only marginally better.

it was the treatment that went up afterwards that really brought the toms into focus. flutter echo and standing waves, which are largely imperceptible problems (on tape anyway) until you hear the difference, became a thing of the past.

you can check out the final results here (this is totally raw, no eq or effects):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDBEY-TKTOY

I'm really digging that YouTube Video. It sounds great. I also use the Glyn Johns set-up. But I have the most respect for your playing and sound.

I spent about half an hour on my computer with your Myspace page playing in the background last week. I love your music, man.

[errr314]

Ok...I am back...and, Oh yeah, did I mention that Rush rules?

I really dont think its a prob with your mics......but its a problem with your levels. What is your recording chain? I am a minimalist as well. Peluso CEMC6 overheads...Audix I5 on snare.. EV ND868 on kick. Thats it. I hear my toms just as good as everthing else. I use recorder man method/Glyn J...method. One sec and I will post a pic if that helps. Why? Cos' I am bored and drunk.

Your shizz reminds me of a combo of Big Head Todd and The Monsters, New Age'y Stuff and somehow Queensrÿche - Silent Lucidity at the end.....very cool.

[errr314]

Word! Here ya go....

[thebigcheese]

My chain right now is just al those mics going into a Focusrite Saffire Pro 10 i/o interface. Like I said, though, I have to roll off the OHs on the low end a bit or it just gets icky down there, especially when I add in bass. Maybe I'll try again without rolling off, maybe just cutting certain frequencies down there or something...

I do have one gobo that I got when my school was getting rid of it, it's a pretty big one, too. Maybe I can just place that somewhere when I'm recording?

[Greg_L]

The one thing you haven't mentioned is your toms themselves. Do they sound worth a shit? Why aren't they cutting through? Maybe it's your playing. I listened to your clip. It sounds like you're barely playing at all and the toms didn't sound very good. Try switching heads or tuning them differently. Try actually hitting them.

[thebigcheese]

I tuned them to sound like what I want. The heads aren't new, but they sound just fine to my ears (in the room). For that song, I'm using the kind of sticks that have a mallet on the other end, so that might also be effecting the sound, but I feel like I am hitting them pretty hard. When I first started using the Glyn Johns method, they sounded really bad, and I figured out that hitting them harder helped a lot, so I've been taking that into account when I play now.

Edit: Also, it's a Gretsch Renown Maple kit, so it's not that I have crappy drums.

[Greg_L]

Well, it's gotta be something you're doing. I play in a bad room, in a corner too, and my toms jump out like a motherfucker. They're damn near too loud. I use the "Recorderman" overhead method, which isn't that different from the Glyn Johns method, and I hit the toms moderately hard and have a good tune on them. My kit's a Mapex Pro-M with EC2 batters and G1 resos.

Maybe try some different/more open heads or keep experimenting with tuning/playing. If everything is done right, there's no reason for the toms not to pop through a simple mix like the one you posted.

[drossfile]

Originally Posted by RAMI

I'm really digging that YouTube Video. It sounds great. I also use the Glyn Johns set-up. But I have the most respect for your playing and sound.

I spent about half an hour on my computer with your Myspace page playing in the background last week. I love your music, man.

wow, thanks man! i'm honored!

for the record, all the music on that page was recorded on various old setups, and i haven't completed anything since i revamped the studio. i have a lot of sketched ideas in the daw, but nothing ready to mix yet. it takes me forever to put together a song. the most recent disc took me 5 years to finish.

[thebigcheese]

The heads are Evans Genera g2 on the batter and g1 on the resonant. You're right that I'm not a very hard player, but even so... I dunno, it might just be my EQ. I'm going to play with that a bit now.

[drossfile]

Originally Posted by thebigcheese

The heads are Evans Genera g2 on the batter and g1 on the resonant. You're right that I'm not a very hard player, but even so... I dunno, it might just be my EQ. I'm going to play with that a bit now.

the g2/g1 combo is pretty much as "open" as it gets, so it's definitely not your head choice...

[thebigcheese]

Originally Posted by drossfile

the g2/g1 combo is pretty much as "open" as it gets, so it's definitely not your head choice...

When you say "open", what exactly do you mean? Does that just mean it resonates a lot? What would you suggest I use, then?

I played with the tuning a bit and it definitely sounds better, but they still aren't popping through, so I guess it might just be the heads. I've got moon gel on all of them, if that might be an issue (they don't sound very good without it, though).

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by thebigcheese

When you say "open", what exactly do you mean? Does that just mean it resonates a lot? What would you suggest I use, then?

I played with the tuning a bit and it definitely sounds better, but they still aren't popping through, so I guess it might just be the heads. I've got moon gel on all of them, if that might be an issue (they don't sound very good without it, though).

You're kind of shooting yourself in the foot. I personally don't think it's EQ. If you go EQ'ing the overheads, you're gonna affect other areas that you may not want affected. The G2/G1 combo is naturally pretty freaking open, and then you're choking them down with moongels. If you want deader sounding heads, get some coated heads and don't use any moongels at all. You may not currently like the "open" sound of the G2/G1's by themselves, but that open-ness helps cut through the mix if you're not close-micing the toms.

My 2 cents:
1) Get rid of the moongels and tune the toms to the open-est tone you can get.

2) Hit em harder

[thebigcheese]

I don't know what you mean by "open", though. The reason I put the moon gels on is just because they sound too flappy when I smack them with my sticks.

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by thebigcheese

I don't know what you mean by "open", though. The reason I put the moon gels on is just because they sound too flappy when I smack them with my sticks.

Then you don't have them tuned right. I really can't see any other reason why you can't get a good recorded drum sound from the equipment you listed. A tom should never sound "flappy". Learn how to tune them properly.

An "open" tom has the type of heads that allows it to boom and ring with a lot of natural overtones when tuned to it's fundamental pitch. It sounds to me like your toms are tuned poorly, and you use the moongels as a crutch.

There's no reason whatsoever that you can't get a good sound with your Gretsch kit and G2/G1 heads. Your problem is operator error. It has to be.