Jazz guitar help

[eyema_believer]

Hello everyone,

As has been pointed out here, my lead playing is more than a bit diatonic. (very simple, harmonically speaking) So, I'm taking a jazz band course at community college this fall. Can someone recommend to me some progressions, and what chords to use where....I need a brush-up.
For instance... 1-2-5. In the Key of "A" might be Amaj7, Bm6, Em7. Or whatever.... I just pulled that out of the air.....

Help!

~Shawn

[Henry Mars]

Originally Posted by eyema_believer

Hello everyone,

As has been pointed out here, my lead playing is more than a bit diatonic. (very simple, harmonically speaking) So, I'm taking a jazz band course at community college this fall. Can someone recommend to me some progressions, and what chords to use where....I need a brush-up.
For instance... 1-2-5. In the Key of "A" might be Amaj7, Bm6, Em7. Or whatever.... I just pulled that out of the air.....

Help!

~Shawn

Try to obtain the following books:

Tonal and Rhythmic Principles (Jazz Improvisation I) by John Mehegan
Jazz and The Improvised Line (Jazz Improvisation II) by John Mehegan
Chords and Chord Progressions Vol. I and II by Bugs Bower
Beginners Book for Jazz Improvisation by Adolf Sandole
The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine

There is enough stuff in these books to keep you very busy over the next several years. These books are among the best IMO. All you have to do is sweat them out.

[dementedchord]

not sure who or why you were told diatonic is bad somehow... most music is diatonic at some level... you hear rockers talking about I IV V type progressions sometimes even making each a dominant function chord... well jazz when analyized works off of ii V7 I... often temp modulating it several times through out the tune... the easiest example that comes to mind is satin doll...


the changes basicly are:

Dm G7 Dm G7 Em A7 Em A7 Dm Db7 C

the first 2 measures the Dmin and G7 are the ii V7 in C
the third and fourth measures are ii V7 in D
then back to C for the final resolution ii V I(tritone sub is used for the V)

so as you can see when soloing on this you have to use both keys of C and D...

this is where a theory background is helpful... as what you need to do is beable to easily identify the keys common to a progression...

make sense???

[leddy]

Originally Posted by Henry Mars

The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine

+Infinity

That book alone could keep you real busy for a while.

I once fell into the trap of getting every book there was on how to play jazz. It gets crazy. Just pick one or two and REALLY try to wrap your head around it.

What you are asking about in your post is how not to play so "inside". But it also sounds like you don't really have a strong understanding of what inside is yet. Start with learning major scale harmony. While doing that, learn a few simple tunes (Autumn Leaves, etc.). As you understand major scale harmony, learn to analyze those tunes and see chords in terms of their function because - ultimately - you want to be able to learn a tune so well you can play it in any key without really thinking about it. Not just the chords, but the melodies too. The more expressively you can play melodies, the more expressive your solos will be.

With that ability, you will begin to develop a more mature vocabulary when you improvise. And don't get hung up on playing the "right" notes when you blow. Just listen for what you want to hear.

I love jazz, and I love to see people want to learn it. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

[famous beagle]

"Rhythm Changes," based on Gershwin's "I Got Rhythm" is essential. There are lots of variations, but here's a basic version in Bb:

A section:
||: Bb G7 | Cm F7 | Dm G7 | Cm F7 |

| Bb Bb7 | Eb Ebm | Dm G7 | Cm F7 :||

B section (bridge):

| D7 | | G7 | |
| C7 | | F7 | |

A section again


This is very basic, and you see tons of variations on this with passing diminished chords, flat-five substitutions, etc. For instance, you might see the first phrase played like this:

| Bb6 Bdim7 | Cm7 C#dim7 | Dm7 etc. |

... where the Bdim7 is acting as a G7b9 with the 3rd in the bass, and the C#dim7 is acting kind of like a Bbdim7 (this is a more advanced resolution). Regardless, the elements from Rhythm Changes that show up a lot are the I-vi-ii-V in the beginning, and the cycle of 5ths bridge.

Also, a jazz blues is great to practice with too. Again, there are too many variations to list, but here's a good one to start with in C:

| C7 | F7 | C7 | Gm7 C7 |

| F7 | F#dim7 | C7 | A7 |

| Dm7 | G7 | Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 |


As someone else mentioned, learn melodies! Don't just learn chord progressions from a Real Book. Learning melodies will help expand your repertoire of licks more than you know. You'll begin to recognize lots of things and will develop your ear much more quickly.

[muttley600]

Get a good fake book, learn lots of changes. Get a good theory book, learn lots of theory. Learn as many melodies from as many standards as you can. Transcribe it all into flat keys so the horn players can wing it. Next, and this is the important bit. Forget everything you have learned and just go out there and play it.

[Henry Mars]

Originally Posted by famous beagle

"Rhythm Changes," based on Gershwin's "I Got Rhythm" is essential. There are lots of variations, but here's a basic version in Bb:

A section:
||: Bb G7 | Cm F7 | Dm G7 | Cm F7 |

| Bb Bb7 | Eb Ebm | Dm G7 | Cm F7 :||

B section (bridge):

| D7 | | G7 | |
| C7 | | F7 | |

A section again


This is very basic, and you see tons of variations on this with passing diminished chords, flat-five substitutions, etc. For instance, you might see the first phrase played like this:

| Bb6 Bdim7 | Cm7 C#dim7 | Dm7 etc. |

... where the Bdim7 is acting as a G7b9 with the 3rd in the bass, and the C#dim7 is acting kind of like a Bbdim7 (this is a more advanced resolution). Regardless, the elements from Rhythm Changes that show up a lot are the I-vi-ii-V in the beginning, and the cycle of 5ths bridge.

Also, a jazz blues is great to practice with too. Again, there are too many variations to list, but here's a good one to start with in C:

| C7 | F7 | C7 | Gm7 C7 |

| F7 | F#dim7 | C7 | A7 |

| Dm7 | G7 | Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 |


As someone else mentioned, learn melodies! Don't just learn chord progressions from a Real Book. Learning melodies will help expand your repertoire of licks more than you know. You'll begin to recognize lots of things and will develop your ear much more quickly.

Mostly you have to forget about rock and learn how music is put together.
The Real Book has a lot of old standards that will get you on your way.

There is an old out of print music theory book (40 years out of print) by Carolyn Alchen. If you can find it down load it. There is a ton of stuff in there , mostly classical, but a real eye opener if you can read it.

[Light]

For Jazz? There is really only one thing you have to know perfectly. It's pretty simple.


ii7 V7 I



Spend the rest of your life getting that down, then come back for the next lesson - the Blues.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[Henry Mars]

Originally Posted by Light

For Jazz? There is really only one thing you have to know perfectly. It's pretty simple.


ii7 V7 I



Spend the rest of your life getting that down, then come back for the next lesson - the Blues.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

I wouldn't make it quite that simple, although cadences and turnarounds are important.

[Light]

Originally Posted by Henry Mars

I wouldn't make it quite that simple, although cadences and turnarounds are important.

OK, fine, throw in all the variations of II-V-I. You know, tritone subs, cycling dominants, all that shit.

I suppose it would be a good idea to learn some modal theory too, but lets face it, modal soloing is easy. Well, relatively.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[Henry Mars]

Originally Posted by Light

OK, fine, throw in all the variations of II-V-I. You know, tritone subs, cycling dominants, all that shit.

I suppose it would be a good idea to learn some modal theory too, but lets face it, modal soloing is easy. Well, relatively.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

I don't know. some of the Joe Henderson modal stuff isn't so easy, or Wayne Shorter stuff. Every try to solo over Giant Steps ... even with pentonic scales it is a killer. My point is that this can't over simplified.

[famous beagle]

Originally Posted by Light

OK, fine, throw in all the variations of II-V-I. You know, tritone subs, cycling dominants, all that shit.

I suppose it would be a good idea to learn some modal theory too, but lets face it, modal soloing is easy. Well, relatively.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

While "soloing with a mode" may be easy, I'd argue that much fewer people can create good modal solos. You've really got to know much more about phrasing and melody in order to create interesting lines without the benefit of harmony to help you out.

ii-V-I is certainly the most ubiquitous progression in jazz, that's for sure, but mastering that alone will hardly make you a fluid jazz player.

[Thurgood]

I guess I am logged in. Very sorry to postpone response as I hav to go running in the heat. I will further respond to you jazz issue. The above are very good references. Bump to Light the 2 5 1 progression is a great way to begin. will be back aftr torture.

[Light]

Originally Posted by Henry Mars

I don't know. some of the Joe Henderson modal stuff isn't so easy, or Wayne Shorter stuff. Every try to solo over Giant Steps ... even with pentonic scales it is a killer. My point is that this can't over simplified.

Except, Giant Steps isn't a modal piece. It's got four measures of weird changes (but not modal changes), and the rest of it is nothing but a string of ii-V-I's. It's actually not that hard, if you play it as a ballad. It's only when you start playing it as a up tempo piece that it gets difficult.

But I was (as usual) being a bit hyperbolic. You need to focus on being able to continue your lines through changes of key, to play the changes, so to speak. My favorite reference for, well really any guitar playing, but in particular jazz guitar is Mick Goodrick's The Advancing Guitarist. Buy that, work your way through it. You'll be in much better shape.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Thurgood

I guess I am logged in. Very sorry to postpone response as I hav to go running in the heat. I will further respond to you jazz issue. The above are very good references. Bump to Light the 2 5 1 progression is a great way to begin. will be back aftr torture.

off topic, but you're going running in August in Jackson??!! Ouch.

I actually lived in Jackson for a summer many years ago.

[leddy]

Originally Posted by Light

Except, Giant Steps isn't a modal piece. It's got four measures of weird changes (but not modal changes), and the rest of it is nothing but a string of ii-V-I's. It's actually not that hard, if you play it as a ballad. It's only when you start playing it as a up tempo piece that it gets difficult.

But I was (as usual) being a bit hyperbolic. You need to focus on being able to continue your lines through changes of key, to play the changes, so to speak. My favorite reference for, well really any guitar playing, but in particular jazz guitar is Mick Goodrick's The Advancing Guitarist. Buy that, work your way through it. You'll be in much better shape.

I'm pretty sure Henry knows Giant Steps isn't modal - I think he just was making a point that learning ii-V-I's doesn't cover all the bases.

Excellent point on reminding folks they have to learn to play through the key changes.

[leddy]

I just want to reiterate that I think the Mark Levine "Jazz Theory" book lays out a good syllabus for learning jazz:

Part 1
Theory; Scale harmony including major, minor, diminished and whole tone.
Practice tips.

Part 2
"From scales to music"; bebop, pent., blues, playing outside, rhythm changes and blues forms.

Part 3
Reharmonization; basic and advanced, Coltrane changes

Part 4
Tunes; Common forms, how to learn them, repertoire

Part 5
Everything else; listening, latin jazz, more

[Henry Mars]

Originally Posted by Light

Except, Giant Steps isn't a modal piece. It's got four measures of weird changes (but not modal changes), and the rest of it is nothing but a string of ii-V-I's. It's actually not that hard, if you play it as a ballad. It's only when you start playing it as a up tempo piece that it gets difficult.

But I was (as usual) being a bit hyperbolic. You need to focus on being able to continue your lines through changes of key, to play the changes, so to speak. My favorite reference for, well really any guitar playing, but in particular jazz guitar is Mick Goodrick's The Advancing Guitarist. Buy that, work your way through it. You'll be in much better shape.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

The point I was trying to make with my Giant Steps reference ( and I probably could have made it better ) is that there are many approaches to improvising on Giant Steps. Entire books have been written about it.
One night several years ago Joe Pass was in town ( Philly ) he told me how much he hated Giant Steps .... but every one including me wanted him to play it. Strange because he used a chord scale approach on it and it really sounded cool.
Another approach in any musical piece is to to try and find the harmonic line in the tune, you then can use modes against the harmonic line to get an interesting solo. The key to all of this is not to think of music in one dimension. There are many approaches.
As far as Mick Goodrick's book goes it is ok just too guitar oriented. I believe in the concept of learning music first then applying it to a particular instrument. You need to climb out of the guitar thought mode .. think like a musician then apply what you know to the guitar. Some of the best ideas I have had came to me while I was screwing around with the piano .. and a lot of it can be made to work on the guitar ... remember, be a musician first.

BTW I don't play piano, but I learned a lot about chord construction and voice leading on it.

[eyema_believer]

Thanks for all the input so far everyone. Keep in mind, that I just want to start out with getting a few new chords under my fingers, so I can play a jazz tune and not sound like a complete nit-wit. Soloing? Not too worried about it yet, but I'll most likely keep my simple scales and try and change keys with the song.

[Corndog]

I used to be a bass player so my solo-ing never got past the "nurnt-NEE nurnt-NEE" stage!!!

I just make up shit with the "Don't know don't care...lucky bastard" school of chord progressions.



...I am of NO help am I???

[Light]

Originally Posted by Henry Mars

As far as Mick Goodrick's book goes it is ok just too guitar oriented. I believe in the concept of learning music first then applying it to a particular instrument. You need to climb out of the guitar thought mode

See, and that is exactly what I think Goodrick does - force you to stop thinking like most guitarists (position playing), and start thinking more like a piano or horn player (in a more linier fashion). HE, for certain, doesn't think like most guitar players, and back when I could play I found his book a huge help (damn hands, giving out just when you need them most!)



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[dogonjon]

You can take your diatonic scale and modes there of and merge them with pentatonic major and minor through harmonic and melodic minor scales/aeolian mode. This results in ascending and descending chromatic passages that differ from each other. The sluring of the minor/major 3rd (blue note) ascending and the major 7/ minor 7 descending gives you a chromatic range of a tritone. Tritones can be inverted, extroverted and perverted. Within these versions you have the latitude to play anything you damn well please. There are only two notes in the chromatic scale that you probably should avoid and they differ depending onthe key and whether you are ascending or descending. Your mission should you decide to accept is to learn which notes to avoid while playing as many different notes as possible.

[Light]

Originally Posted by eyema_believer

Thanks for all the input so far everyone. Keep in mind, that I just want to start out with getting a few new chords under my fingers, so I can play a jazz tune and not sound like a complete nit-wit. Soloing? Not too worried about it yet, but I'll most likely keep my simple scales and try and change keys with the song.

Meh, chords are easy (which is not to say they are unimportant!) Unless you are playing Freddie Green, of course, in which case they are a nightmare (that style of big band chord playing is deceptively hard). Other than that, just do what piano players do - play the third and the seventh, plus whatever tensions you feel compelled/are instructed to play. Let the bass player get the root. The fifth is boring anyway, so just leave it out. This is PARTICULARLY true if there is a piano player in the group. He's got 88 notes he can play at any one time, and he is probably going to want to use them. Just stay out of his way, don't play too much, and pretty soon you'll be so busy gigging that you won't have time to post questions on the internet.

Well, maybe not, but as a former teacher of mine likes to say (who would know better than anyone, as he is constantly gigging), "you'll never get hired because you can solo - you get hired because you can groove."

And though my manner may be flip, I'm serious - all you need to play 75% of the time when comping (accompanying) in jazz is the root and the seventh. Tensions are nice, but they're just filler. Try to keep it down to one tension at a time unless you've got a good reason to play more (like it is written in the chart, or that big accent at the end of the melody for Stolen Moments) Same for the root and the fifth. Sure, they are an essential part of the chord (well, not the fifth - in jazz he's just the poor abandoned step child who no one likes that much), but the bass player is going to hit them anyway, so why would you want to worry about them? It's the third and the seventh which carry the function of the chord, which is what you need to worry about the most.

When your comping behind someone else's solo, playing more than the third and the seventh will just get in the way of their thing (at least, if they are any good). Also, you'll get in the way of the bass player, if SHE decides to do anything interesting - which you hope she will! The root and the seventh are the notes which define the function of the chord, and as often as not (more than that, actually), when you are substituting a chord it works because it still has the third and seventh of the original chord.

Take, for instance, the infamous tritone substitution. This is the substitution of any dominant chord with a dominant chord a tritone away. It works particularly well because the third and the seventh of a dominant chord forms a tritone. So you move the root an the fifth by a tritone, but leave the root and the seventh (which, being a tritone, is the main sound in that chord). Of course, they invert - the third is the seventh, and the seventh is the third - but they are the same notes. The other fun thing about a tritone sub is that all those natural tensions in the original chord (the ninth and the thirteenth) become altered tensions in the sub (a sharp or flat ninth, or a sharp 13 - and of course the sharp 11 is actually the original chord's root note!)

You can play more, of course, but most of the time if you just keep yourself to the third and seventh while keeping solid time, other players will love playing with you because you are leaving enough room for them - and there is nothing musicians like more than having enough room for their own ego!

So practice being able to play the third and seventh of any chord on site, and just get in the habit of playing just that unless you have a reason to play more. Also, try to work on being able to voice lead between them. Usually that will mean the voice (i.e., the string) which was playing the third should be playing the seventh on the next chord, and vise versa. At least, when you are playing a ii-V-I they will, but you will be playing a LOT of ii-V-I's if you are playing jazz, so it's a good place to start. Most of the time, if your doing this it works well to just play them on the G and D strings. Every now and then, add a tension (a 9th, 11th, or 13th) on the B string. Don't get stuck in a rut with that, but most of the time that will do the trick.

Obviously, you don't want to do this 100% of the time, but it is almost always appropriate, and seldom inappropriate. Hell, it works in a lot of rock stuff too. If you get that down, you're comping will be light years ahead of most of the guys whose recital's at Berklee drove me to a decade of all but hating jazz. Too many damn notes in their chords - it just sounded muddy.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[Light]

Originally Posted by Henry Mars

The point I was trying to make with my Giant Steps reference ( and I probably could have made it better ) is that there are many approaches to improvising on Giant Steps. Entire books have been written about it.

Sure. Boring books, but still. (Not knocking them, really, just - I mean, come on.) But as an example of how there is more to jazz than ii-V-I's, it a pretty bad choice. Or that modal soloing isn't easy (it WAS a joke, by the way!) Modal soloing puts the emPHAsis in a different place. I know that. But it IS a lot easier to get to a place where you can at least not have any of your notes sound out of place. It may still sound like pointless noodling, but at least it's in the right key all the time.

Personally, I'm with the late Mr. Pass - Giant Steps is a boring song. At least, when you play it as fast as everyone seems to feel the need to play it. It becomes not much more than an exercise. It makes a LOVELY ballad, though. Too bad no one thinks to play it that way. Even with that, though, `Train did a lot of MUCH more interesting songs.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[Thurgood]

Hey Light, you up early. I agree wit your post about 251, and its use in jazz however, I belieive that the use of the third (maj or min) gives the proper guide tone for the changes. Just my .o2.

still scratching the stuff from my eyes. I hope you all have a good day. I will check out the Levine Books. I also reccomend the Howard Roberts Praxis stuff. A good fellow who taught me much was a good friend of Joe Pass ( Joe even gave him a gtr) Joe will be a great study to anyone interested in Jazz guitar. Be well all. W.