Why am I not wild about Mesa-Boogie?

[Light]

Just one of the reasons I'm not wild about Mesa's. Here is a (copy and pasted) quote from one of their owner's manuals:

...CAUTION When turning up the Master and/or Lead Master and playing quite loudly, you should expect to reduce the Volume and possibly the Treble and/or Presence. Otherwise, you may push the 12AX7 preamp tubes beyond
their reasonable range, and noise, feedback or ringing may occur. This is normal, however; it does not indicate a malfunction in the amplifier. ...(hyperbole snip)... But you cannot run both the Volume and the Masters wide open at the same time without encountering feedback...

This entire paragraph is complete and utter bullshit. The problems are real, but they are decidedly NOT "normal." They are a result of bad design practice and money saving steps in the manufacturing process. Some of these issues could be easily solved by simply using shielded cable inside the amp. Others could be solved by using a larger chassis and cabinet. The rest are issues of poor layout. Why would you want to pay that much money for an amp that doesn't work? And worse, an amp which is DESIGNED not to work!



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[Guitarer]

Most Boogies are meant for heavier stuff, where power tube sag isn't wanted...Therefore, it's not really a problem to most Boogie customers.

[Light]

Originally Posted by Guitarer

Most Boogies are meant for heavier stuff, where power tube sag isn't wanted...Therefore, it's not really a problem to most Boogie customers.

You mean higher gain/high volume stuff? That is EXACTLY where these things are the biggest problem. In any event, it's still an amp that doesn't work right.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[lpdeluxe]

If I felt that way, I'd probably go with something else.

[Farview]

I've never had a boogie turned up that loud. There is no need, it isn't a Priceton.

The designed sweet spot is somewhere in the middle, not with the amp decked. The amp is capable of more gain that is practical to use.

Depending on the model, you can set the gain structure up a number of different ways, certain combinations just end up being useless.

The dual and triple recs are very versatile, you can get a ton of different sounds out of them (even if it seems everyone is going for the same one)


To illustrate my point, all of these songs were recorded with the same triple rectifier, same cabinet, same mics, same preamp, etc... (including the clean)

http://www.farviewrecording.com/audi...emosongRD3.mp3
http://www.farviewrecording.com/audi...eyeRD3Demo.mp3
http://www.farviewrecording.com/audi...oneRD3Demo.mp3
www.farviewrecording.com/audio/BURNS.mp3

[WhiteStrat]

Originally Posted by Farview

I've never had a boogie turned up that loud. There is no need, it isn't a Priceton.

The designed sweet spot is somewhere in the middle, not with the amp decked. The amp is capable of more gain that is practical to use.

Depending on the model, you can set the gain structure up a number of different ways, certain combinations just end up being useless.

The dual and triple recs are very versatile, you can get a ton of different sounds out of them (even if it seems everyone is going for the same one)


To illustrate my point, all of these songs were recorded with the same triple rectifier, same cabinet, same mics, same preamp, etc... (including the clean)

http://www.farviewrecording.com/audi...emosongRD3.mp3
http://www.farviewrecording.com/audi...eyeRD3Demo.mp3
http://www.farviewrecording.com/audi...oneRD3Demo.mp3
www.farviewrecording.com/audio/BURNS.mp3

Pretty sweet stuff, Farview. The guitar tones in the very first link are the stuff of my fantasies...must start saving...

[Farview]

Originally Posted by WhiteStrat

Pretty sweet stuff, Farview. The guitar tones in the very first link are the stuff of my fantasies...must start saving...

That was a PRS with stock pickups plugged straight into a triple rec into a Laney cabinet with celestion 75 watt speakers mic'd with a 57 and a 421.

The big thing about the boogie's is the tone controls. Changing the tone settings completely changes the type and feel of the distortion. The tone controls seem to be before the distortion in the signal chain, so the amount of compression and distortion will be very effected by these settings. i.e. the more midrange you pump, the less gain you need...

[WhiteStrat]

Originally Posted by Farview

That was a PRS with stock pickups plugged straight into a triple rec into a Laney cabinet with celestion 75 watt speakers mic'd with a 57 and a 421.

The big thing about the boogie's is the tone controls. Changing the tone settings completely changes the type and feel of the distortion. The tone controls seem to be before the distortion in the signal chain, so the amount of compression and distortion will be very effected by these settings. i.e. the more midrange you pump, the less gain you need...

Is the Laney cab a preference of yours, or is just what you had on hand?

[TelePaul]

I've heard the noise floor on certain mesas is quite high...I forget the exact model.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by WhiteStrat

Is the Laney cab a preference of yours, or is just what you had on hand?

I used to be endorsed by Laney (Late 80's, early 90's) All I have left is the one cabinet and my anniversary head. The cabinet stays in the iso room miced up. People just use it instead of dragging their own 4x12 into the studio. It's just a convenience thing. I would probably get better (well, different in a good way) results with a cabinet with Vintage 30's in it. But this Laney has a really tight and strong low end that I like.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by TelePaul

I've heard the noise floor on certain mesas is quite high...I forget the exact model.

It depends on how you set up the gain structure.

[famous beagle]

Yeah this argument is just as pointless as the analog vs. digital one.

Light doesn't like Boogies. He likes amps with simple circuitry for their "purer" tone. I happen to agree with him on that preference.

But the argument that Boogies are a poor design doesn't hold water. If they produce the sounds that people want (and obviously a lot of people want them, though I'm not one of them), then how can you say they're not doing their job and are of poor design?

If you turn up an old Fender amp, it distorts. It's not supposed to do that and wasn't designed with that in mind. Early Fender amps (and even Marshalls!) were designed and even marketed in the beginning for clean tones with high headroom. They certainly don't do that (not by today's standards), but many people love what they do instead. Are they flawed in design because of this? Of course not.

All you really need to say Light is that you don't like Boogies period, because that's all it really comes down to.

I mean, if we had to list all the pieces of commonly used (even legendary) gear that have some kind of "design flaw," we'd be here all day.

What about a Les Paul? You can't even reach the higher frets without bringing your thumb underneath the fretboard! Talk about a "design flaw!" I couldn't believe that the first time I played a Les Paul!

[muttley600]

Light, Messa's don't go up to 11..

[zed32]

man i coulda told you a long time ago that Mesa sucks!

[sarge117]

Originally Posted by Light

Just one of the reasons I'm not wild about Mesa's. Here is a (copy and pasted) quote from one of their owner's manuals:






This entire paragraph is complete and utter bullshit. The problems are real, but they are decidedly NOT "normal." They are a result of bad design practice and money saving steps in the manufacturing process. Some of these issues could be easily solved by simply using shielded cable inside the amp. Others could be solved by using a larger chassis and cabinet. The rest are issues of poor layout. Why would you want to pay that much money for an amp that doesn't work? And worse, an amp which is DESIGNED not to work!



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

I own a roadking and it says the same thing in my manual.

It is also the best sounding amp I have ever heard and it kills every Marshall I have ever heard! Not just beats, destroys!

[sarge117]

And for the record, Boogie is just pointing out something that is essentially a problem on most amps, especially Marshalls, the ones that actually have gain that is.

My amp is quiet even with the treble and gain cranked, or atleast as high as I would ever put them. Only time it feeds back is when I let the strings go.

I tried out a DSL a few weeks ago and that was a feedback monster!

Essentially Mesa is just being honest!

Unless of course Mesa is the only amplifier that has feedback at high volumes with the treble and Presence pegged.

Feedback which I have not heard as of yet.

[nopainkiller]

hell yea, les pauls suck. Get an SG! Who the hell would wanna play a les paul? Everyone. Why?!?!?!? Seriously, WHY?!?! They're ugly, weird to play, the neck is too wide. did I mention it's ugly as hell? Why don't people save up and buy a rickenbacker or something. Instead of talking crap about the ric cause they can't afford it, lol. this is off subject. I just gotta take every op I can to bash the les paul.

To top it off you gotta buy special long shaft pots if you wanna replace 'em! And the neck is friggin like a foot wide! What a dumb guitar! This would be all right, if it at least looked cool. SGs are gorgous! Hell any guitar is, except les pauls, bleh.

[ido1957]

My friend has an F50 Mesa 1X12 which is incredibly loud. I don't care for the tone compared to my Marshall but my Marshall is 4X12 and double the watts.
It is what I call flat.... The OD sound is not to my taste either. Years ago I played in a band with one of the original boogies and I found it too was loud without much tone...(with Les Paul).... The record out the back is superior in tone to the Marshall though...

[Anfontan]

I can blame a Mesa Boogie for some ear damage about 20 years ago when I was playing next to one at a jam session. I'm pretty sure it had a JBL and he'd had it modded as well-I had an Ampeg 100 watt with 2 12's and I could not hear myself!!! I promptly packed up and got the Hell out before I went totally deaf.................

[Corndog]

Originally Posted by nopainkiller

hell yea, les pauls suck. Get an SG! Who the hell would wanna play a les paul? Everyone. Why?!?!?!? Seriously, WHY?!?! They're ugly, weird to play, the neck is too wide. did I mention it's ugly as hell? Why don't people save up and buy a rickenbacker or something. Instead of talking crap about the ric cause they can't afford it, lol. this is off subject. I just gotta take every op I can to bash the les paul.

To top it off you gotta buy special long shaft pots if you wanna replace 'em! And the neck is friggin like a foot wide! What a dumb guitar! This would be all right, if it at least looked cool. SGs are gorgous! Hell any guitar is, except les pauls, bleh.

A Boogie and a Ric...there's a combination made in Hades.

[Light]

Originally Posted by famous beagle

Yeah this argument is just as pointless as the analog vs. digital one.

No, this is quite different. This is simply bad design. Given what is available to them in manufacturing this amp, they could easily fix these problems. But it would cost more money. This isn't a "oh, I don't like the way that sounds" thing. This is a, "what the fuck, why doesn't this thing WORK" thing.

Yeah, old Fenders distort (thank god), and yes that was not the intent - but they were doing the best they could with what was available at the time. But while they may distort, they don't go into uncontrolled oscillation. This is different. This could be fixed by without loosing anything by simply spending a couple of bucks on shielded cable inside the amp, a larger box, and doing getting rid of the PC board mounted tube sockets. This would add a bit to the parts cost, and a bit more to the cost of labor (you can't solder chassis mounted tube sockets with a wave soldering machine, you have to do them by hand). A few simple (but slightly more expensive) changes to the design, and you would have the same amp - but it would actually work right no matter where you set the knobs. It would still be a pretty boring amp (to my ears), but at least it would WORK.

Bad design is bad design, even if the final product has some useful modes of operation. If the only way to get the amp to do what they wanted it to do was to have these issues, that's one thing. This isn't that. This is lazy, sloppy, BAD design.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[nopainkiller]

Originally Posted by Corndog

A Boogie and a Ric...there's a combination made in Hades.

yea I just wanted to talk shit bout les pauls. Didn't think about how this was a mesa boogie thread. What would you play a ric through? If you wanted it loud and skronky

[rayc]

Loud & Skronky wouldn't really sound like a Rick. Buy a plank instead.

[nopainkiller]

Originally Posted by rayc

Loud & Skronky wouldn't really sound like a Rick. Buy a plank instead.

bleh? are u talkin what i think u are?

[famous beagle]

Originally Posted by Light

No, this is quite different. This is simply bad design. Given what is available to them in manufacturing this amp, they could easily fix these problems. But it would cost more money. This isn't a "oh, I don't like the way that sounds" thing. This is a, "what the fuck, why doesn't this thing WORK" thing.

Yeah, old Fenders distort (thank god), and yes that was not the intent - but they were doing the best they could with what was available at the time. But while they may distort, they don't go into uncontrolled oscillation. This is different. This could be fixed by without loosing anything by simply spending a couple of bucks on shielded cable inside the amp, a larger box, and doing getting rid of the PC board mounted tube sockets. This would add a bit to the parts cost, and a bit more to the cost of labor (you can't solder chassis mounted tube sockets with a wave soldering machine, you have to do them by hand). A few simple (but slightly more expensive) changes to the design, and you would have the same amp - but it would actually work right no matter where you set the knobs. It would still be a pretty boring amp (to my ears), but at least it would WORK.

Bad design is bad design, even if the final product has some useful modes of operation. If the only way to get the amp to do what they wanted it to do was to have these issues, that's one thing. This isn't that. This is lazy, sloppy, BAD design.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

But my whole point is, Mesas work fine for thousands of people. The type of use that you're talking about is not what Mesas are used for, therefore, it's not a problem.

It's a matter of principles vs. practicality. There are plenty of times we make the best out of something in terms of being practical. Think about the Western diatonic scale. Talk about a bad design? We're dividing the octave up into a non-tunable way. It cannot be tuned properly. But we make compromises, and in day-to-day life 99.99% of people get on with it just fine. You should know as much as anyone about the compromises you have to make with tuning a guitar. It's impossible to make each chord sound as good as the other.

The thing is, though, it's not necessary for every day life, just like the ability to run both the master and the preamp volume on 10 with a Mesa is not required by the people who use them. And it's not as though they lied about it in the manual text you pasted. They simply said (or implied) this is normal for that amplifier. And, since that's the way those amps are designed, that is a normal issue that arises when you crank both volumes. They didn't say "all amplifiers have this problem; it's just inherent in tube amp design."

Anyway ... I don't like Boogies, but plenty people do, and the above issue is obviously not a problem for any of them.