help matching my tone with reference tone..

[skiz]

hey guys, im recording a sort of metalcore band, and im struggling to get the guitar tone to be similar with the reference tone that i want it to sort of be like.

to me, my tone just really sounds far from professional, and doesnt sit as nicely as the tone im aiming for.. anyway i recorded upclose with an audix I-5 thru the guitarists amp. it was a crate something.. not 100% sure, not a pro amp by a long shot but sounds ok i think..

any way, here is the track i used as reference, its Elysium by 36crazyfists : http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=13873


and heres the track im busy working on : http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=13750

what do you think mine needs to get a little closer to that polished sounding tone that they have?

any help would be greatly appreciated. thanks a lot!

[skiz]

17 views and no advice?

[Jouni]

...more guitartracks for starters.. double a couple tracks. A vocal. Fatter bottom end. Then maybe Mastering.

Not a bad sounding track as it is though.. Why imitate?.. Just master that one. Though, if you're gonna be interesting with instrumental stuff, you need better riffs. Period. Soloing is quite yesterday, It's the whole that matters. A totally different case if vocals are to be made... But the production is good enough akshully... Drums sound pretty damn nice, bass, as usual, barely audible. And guitaring on top alone. Alone.

[Halion]

I think it's the placement aswell, it seems to be somewhere on the right, did you use a stereo widener of haas panner or something that does psycho-acoustic panning? Don't use that, instead, double track and pan hard left and right. It will help. Also, some more top-end would help I think, cause honestly, your tone isn't bad at all!

[skiz]

i think the guit is phasing as well, cause im using a single guit track and panning left and right and then adding a 10ms timeshift on the one.

Id like to try the Multi Tracking bit.. just dont think the guitarist im working with has the patience for that to be honest.

Vocals will be added at a later stage but right now im tryin to get the instrumental right.

yeah i was very conservative as far as low end goes.. didnt want to get things muddy so i left the bass quite low in the mix.

[steve.h]

How to record uber awesome explosion tone:

1 - Get an amp that doesn't blow hard (e.g. NOT a Crate). Borrow, steal, whatever, GET A GOOD AMP!

2 - The mic you have is fine, but placement is key. Your clips sound fine placement-wise, if not a little overly-bright, so maybe move a little further away from the center of the cone.

3 - Record TWO "SOLID AS FUCK" TAKES for EACH SIDE! (that's four takes total). Don't mess with doubling tracks: it'll just add phasey shit. If possible, use two different amps/cabs. Otherwise, try to vary the mic placement a bit at the very least.

4 - Get a SOLID AS FUCK bass performance/tone. This is the key to huge guitar tone that most people don't get when they're starting out. Try a direct-in super-clean tone, and mix it with a slightly overdriven/aggressive tone. It'll sound sweet if done right.

5 - Profit?



P.S. If the guitarist doesn't have the "patience" to record his/her OWN SONG more than once, tell him to eat shit. Why the fuck would anybody write something he DIDN'T LOVE TO PLAY, and expect other people to listen to it?

[Jouni]

Steve there is a tad harsh, but makes the point obvious. Try the multitracking, you won't be sorry.

[skiz]

i actually really enjoyed steve's response

yeah i wanna give that a go... i feel my sound is a bit too much mid and not enough meat..

so id like to do the whole getting a vocal track with much more high end and one meat and potatos track with much more low end..

tho i suppose i should pump the mids quite high when doing both of them right?

[WhiteStrat]

Nah, steve's not being harsh. He's right on. So many guitarist double the track by duplicating and delaying one, eq'ing one, pitchshifting one, whatever. In the end, that still sounds like one little guitar with a weird effect on it.

To sound like a big guitar you have to play it more than once. Period.

[Halion]

Originally Posted by skiz

i think the guit is phasing as well, cause im using a single guit track and panning left and right and then adding a 10ms timeshift on the one.

Id like to try the Multi Tracking bit.. just dont think the guitarist im working with has the patience for that to be honest.

Vocals will be added at a later stage but right now im tryin to get the instrumental right.

yeah i was very conservative as far as low end goes.. didnt want to get things muddy so i left the bass quite low in the mix.

That's the Haas effect right there. Make the delay even shorter, and you get phasing. Make it longer and you get an echo.

Making 1 guitar really stereo almost never works in a possitive way. The only thing I can think off that does work is a very deep chorus, but obviously, this is gonna make you sound really 80's in a not-so-good way.

[skiz]

so would i be correct in saying that when double tracking for a vocal sound and then a more low end power sound id have to leave the mids quite high on both?

[Jouni]

At anycase, don't scoop the mids when tracking, easier to take some off while mixing, than trying to find what isn't there.

[Sonixx]

Here's two reamps that I finished up lately. While the Genre is a bit different, the tones aren't that far off.

I'll discuss tracking if you like.

5150 and Rev Double Tracked each side

Rev1 Single Track each side

[WhiteStrat]

Originally Posted by Sonixx

Here's two reamps that I finished up lately. While the Genre is a bit different, the tones aren't that far off.

I'll discuss tracking if you like.

5150 and Rev Double Tracked each side

Rev1 Single Track each side

So, yes, please do discuss tracking. Mics, placement, eq/gain settings on the amp. These are very good heavy guitar sounds, and I suspect a lot of folks here could learn from your approach.

[dean1964]

Originally Posted by Halion

That's the Haas effect right there.

Actually. The Haas effect applies to the perceived direction of origin of a particular sound. It generally requires 35ms to 40ms of delay on the supporting sources. ( or 30 - 35ms depending on who you ask). Honestly, I find you can implement shorter delay times and it still be effective, but that is more of a live sounds thing. Applications include, perceived transparency of a sound reenforcement system, phase / time alignment of speaker system and back line, and is most useful in the time alignment of delay speakers like balcony fills or way out in the middle of the field fills. I had to write a paper on this college, complete with practical application.

All in all I agree. Double tracking is a good way to beef things up. Delaying one side of a duplicated track will fatten things up but it will sound pretty bad if that track is played back summed mono.

This may sound like a strange question, but are you using new strings?

[skiz]

yeah sonixx please wont you let us know your tracking/mixing etc

[Sonixx]

sorry for not getting back sooner... this BB does not always notify and then often I have a problem accessing it. it'll either just do nothing or the server's busy.

I'll need to split my reply over several posts... probably speakers, mics and amps.

Disclaimer I like Andy Sneap type guitar tones. Also I find describing tone w/o examples is virtually useless... and my opinions expressed here are just that... my opinions.

Generally I use two mics, on two different speaker types. I have a very slick method of managing phase and mixing them that I will describe later. Right now I'm liking V30 and Greenback speakers in my Cobra Cab. But this is influenced by other things such as the GTR tone itself.

I have spent mucho time with my amps, speakers and mics (I have a thing for mics) doing nothing but listening to them under a lot of different settings and positions, etc... developing an idea about voicings and limitations... you gotta know and understand what you have.

Also, I have gone through each speaker (labeled them) and spent time micing and listening as so to choose the best for heavy gtr tones. I am writing about heavy thick tones with hi-gain amps (e.g. Arch Enemy, Devil Driver, Trivium, etc).

I have the following speakers and quantities:

V30 (4) Amazing how differently these all sound
Greenback (4)
V12 (1)
Texas heat (1)
G12T75 (1)
GS1275 (4)

and presently the following cabs

Ampeg V4 4x12
Cobra cab 4x12
Mesa 2x12

I often move speakers between cabs and then spend time micing and listening to them. Speakers of the same type can sound very differently. Some are way more pleasing than others. For example I have some older Greenbacks and newer Greenbacks and they sound completely different. I think both are very usable.

Here's an example:

Greenback Comparison

And here's another comparison between a V30 V12 and Texas Heat. It just gives some idea about what they do.

V30 - V12 - Texas Heat Comparison

bye for now.

[WhiteStrat]

Great stuff Sonixx--we appreciate the time you're taking to show us your world--we'll stay tuned.

[skiz]

yeah man, definitely.

thanks a lot

i love that V30 sound hey, sounds great.

what head etc were you using with it? and wat was the room like?

[Sonixx]

Originally Posted by skiz

what head etc were you using with it? and wat was the room like?

I'm not sure what amp that was, but for that type of comparison I use a mic position that is easy to duplicate which is normally pointed directly at the center of the speaker at a certain distance. I have another comparison for mics and the mic differences are pretty impressive and for one mic surprising, the ATM25.

I have a 10K cuft treated room in my basement

[skiz]

woooooooooo bump