too many cymbals

[pinhedgtr]

Anyone have a drummer that hits his cymbals more often than he hits his drums?
Well I do, and it's starting to get on my nerves. If I say something he'll come up with some long-winded excuse about how Niel Peart has tons of cymbals. What's the best way to tell him without hurting his feelings and making him wanna quit the band?

One thing I always do is tell him how awesome it sounds when he hits his toms.

Thanks
B

[MadAudio]

Neil Peart may have a ton of cymbals, but he knows how to use them tastefully.

[Dogman]

Originally Posted by MadAudio

Neil Peart may have a ton of cymbals, but he knows how to use them tastefully.

That is the correct answer....play what's needed for a song, not everything that is sitting in front of you.

[pinhedgtr]

I totally agree, I'm not trying to bash on Neil. My drummer can't even throw away a broken cymbal. He took two of his broken cymbals and made a closed high-hat out of them, sounds like a fucking trash can. He's like "awe man thats a great trashy sound"...and he'll hit em like its a fricken snare drum or something. GRRR

[BentRabbit]

Originally Posted by MadAudio

Neil Peart may have a ton of cymbals, but he knows how to use them tastefully.

I love it at the end of 'A Work In Progress' where Neil is talking about how he only hit his 'trusty' Wuhan China once during the entire recording of their 'Test For Echo' album... (Normally his 'go-to' China)

Just like a mechanic with a garage full of tools... He doesn't pull 'em all out when he works on each car, just the ones that are needed for the job.

[mikeh]

Most musicians have to mature and learn the value of space between notes. This can take time and drummers can be some of the worst offenders when it comes to "overplaying" - I thnk drummers fell obligated to hit everything we have, as often as we can (until we learn to play tastefully).

Perhaps simply telling him that the finest musicians - including Neil Peart - all recognize that what you don't play is often more important than what you do play.

[PhilGood]

Simply tell him, "you're not Neil Peart. When you turn into Neil - I'll agree with you!".

I like the tool and mechanic analogy, but another good one is cooking.

You're making dinner. A nice tasty dish. You have an entire cabinet full of spices. Do you use every friggin' spice in every friggin dish? That would taste like crap! You have the spices so you can use them when they are needed. Not the other way around.

Neil and other great drummers are five star chefs. They know when a spice is needed, and they know when it is not.

[Seafroggys]

Originally Posted by mikeh

Most musicians have to mature and learn the value of space between notes. This can take time and drummers can be some of the worst offenders when it comes to "overplaying" - I thnk drummers fell obligated to hit everything we have, as often as we can (until we learn to play tastefully).

Keith Moon disagrees.

[isfahani]

He's dead, it doesn't count.


Actually, I am kidding - Keith is a great exception to the rule. Also, looking at it in context he was the right drummer for the Who, but may have not been for many other bands given that style.

I like the analogies too, I'd start out with that, and if it really doesn't work for him then start looking for another drummer.

[Rimshot]

I never liked Keith Moon's drumming. I thought he hit hard a lot and fast and too much without a whole lot of finesse. There were many other drummers of that era that I liked a whole lot more.
I have tons of cymbals, but I usually change them up for pieces that I'm doing. I usually have the hats and the big ride and another 4 or five crashes and splashes and occasionally I bring out the gong or the big Wuhan or another specialty cymbal if we're doing a particular piece that I know is suited for it, but I just don't like looking at a gang of metal in front of me while I'm playing. Some would say that 5 or 6 cymbals is a lot.

[Wireneck]

I guess it depends on how serious you are about your band/music. I would say that if his approach is "hurting" the music/vision and he refuses to work on it, then it is time to look for a more fitting drummer.

[mikeh]

When I was a young drummer I was very influenced by Moon - and I did play very busy.....sometimes, too busy. It took my a while to learn that not every song needed every riff I knew.

My current kit includes 1 ride, 2 crashes, 3 splashes and 2 china - but I've had as many as 11 cymbals set up. However, some may only be hit a couple of times during an entire night.

There is nothing wrong with a drummer having several colors to chose from - as long as he/she do not choose them all for every song.

[thedude400]

Sounds to me like you might need to audition a more "rounded" drummer. From the sounds of it you are probably a notch up from him on the talent scale anyways, if he can't pull his weight dynamically.


While cliche, it's painfully true: less is more. Sounds like your drummer feels that more is more, but for him more is actually alot less. Confused yet?

[buryher17]

i have more respect in the world for drummers. I play guitar and have been practicing drums for a little over a year now. And every single recording that inspires me the cymbals are not even loud at all and barely used! Cymbals can get irritating for many people and esspecially in a bad venue cymbals can make the band sound just obnoxious and loud.

you should tell him that maybe for the style of music or vibe of the song him hitting on the cymbals is just unnecessary. or even get someone else to tell him. that would be the safest way lol.

good luck. drums are the key to the recording and live performance. (in my opinion)

[pinhedgtr]

Originally Posted by buryher17

or even get someone else to tell him. that would be the safest way lol.

Yeah I was thinking of having some friends post comments on our myspace about how there are too many cymbals.

I wish I could turn them down in the recording, but I use a 4 mic setup Bass drum, snare and overheads....so if I turn down the overheads I lose the toms(which he barely hits anyways LOL)

Thanks everybody for all the helpful advice. Ya'll rock! I think maybe I just try to put it to him nicely once again.

[pinhedgtr]

Originally Posted by thedude400

While cliche, it's painfully true: less is more. Sounds like your drummer feels that more is more, but for him more is actually alot less. Confused yet?

LOL!!! That's awesome!

[NewAgeMuttLange]

Originally Posted by pinhedgtr

I wish I could turn them down in the recording, but I use a 4 mic setup Bass drum, snare and overheads....so if I turn down the overheads I lose the toms(which he barely hits anyways LOL)

I assume you are multi tracking and not just recording 4 mics into one stereo track.. so what you could do is take you overhead tracks and dupe them, then take one set and put a high shelf on it and suck the cymbals out of it as much as you can without affected the snare/toms.. then you have your overheads and a somewhat effective stereo picture of the toms.. you can then adjust the toms/cymbals independently.. that's how I usually do it when the toms don't cut like i thought they would in the mix..

[Rimshot]

Really good cymbals are capable of giving everything from the most delicate whisper to a bold crash and everything in between. Cheaper cymbals only sound good when you hit them harder. As has been said many times on this board over the years: you CAN hit your drums hard, but not your cymbals. They will max-out on the musical sound you get and if you hit them harder they will make noise and get damaged. A drummer that is constantly breaking cymbals doesn't know how to play. A lot of newer drummers don't understand the musical concept of "dynamics" and especially regarding cymbals. Wallop your drums as hard as you want, but learn to play the cymbals softer and you'll be surprised at how much better it will sound. Learn to vary your dynamics on your drums also and you'll start making music.

[Supercreep]

If your drummer doesn't "get" the music and is overplaying, why bother talking to him about it? It's not like flipping on a light. He hears something different than you do.

Maybe someday he'll "get it". Until then, do you want to be telling people how to play their instrument?

Start looking for a new drummer now. This one isn't a good fit.

[giantsizeflower]

What I did when I had a drummer doing this, was I stripped down his kit to bare minimum, only kick, snare, hi-hat & ride cymbal.
Make him play for a couple sessions with just those, then slowly add things back into his kit. It will make a difference. Put him on stage with the bare kit, and see how he reacts. It worked for me, changed things for good, as I kept threatening to hide the damn toms and various cymbals.

If he can't sound good on a small kit, ain't no way he'll be sounding any better on a large kit.

My $0.02

[Supercreep]

Originally Posted by giantsizeflower

I stripped down his kit to bare minimum, only kick, snare, hi-hat & ride cymbal.

That's the point I'm making. Can you imagine if somebody strung your guitar with only three strings and told you to suck it up?

Fuck!! It would be a short rehearsal, I can say that much.

The drummer doesn't get it. Instead of trying to make him get it, find somebody that already does.....

[drossfile]

Originally Posted by Supercreep

That's the point I'm making. Can you imagine if somebody strung your guitar with only three strings and told you to suck it up?

Fuck!! It would be a short rehearsal, I can say that much.

The drummer doesn't get it. Instead of trying to make him get it, find somebody that already does.....

that's exactly it. don't play with someone because they're available, play with them because your relationship is symbiotic.

it has nothing to do with "too many cymbals" but rather "too many cymbals for what we're doing."

if he's a beginner who's moldable, that's one thing. but if he's experienced and has developed a particular style, then that's his style. he may not be a bad drummer, just a bad fit for what your band is going for.

[drossfile]

Originally Posted by giantsizeflower

If he can't sound good on a small kit, ain't no way he'll be sounding any better on a large kit.

if he's a good drummer, he'll sound like a good drummer on any kit. but just because it sounds good to you doesn't mean it'll sound good to or be any fun for him. would you expect steve vai to be content playing background acoustic rhythm guitar to enya?

see previous post.

[PhilGood]

Originally Posted by giantsizeflower

What I did when I had a drummer doing this, was I stripped down his kit to bare minimum, only kick, snare, hi-hat & ride cymbal.

OK! I agree with the minimalist approach, but this is one of the worst things that can happen, not just to a drummer, but ANY human being!!!!!!!!!!!

TO ALL GUITARISTS, VOCALIST, AND OTHER MUSICIANS IN GENERAL - NEVER DO THIS!!!!!

There is nothing more humiliating, infuriating, immasculating, etc, than to tell the drummer "Here's what you get to play with"! Like YOU get to decide!!!!!!!

AAARGH!!! I agree the drummer needs to learn to play what's needed for the song, but can you think of a better way to do it? Get him to listen, play it back, threaten to find someone else, but NEVER and I mean NEVER tell a drummer what drums and cymbals he gets to play!!!!

That's just plain bullshit!!

Supercreep is right! If we told you "You get to use these three strings only" you'd punch us in the face! Be expecting blowback if you go this route!

And if you think for ONE SECOND that I can't overplay on just a kick, snare, ride and a hi-hat just to piss you off - Buddy, you AIN'T SEEN NOTHING YET!!!

[Seafroggys]

PhilGood has it right.

In High School jazz band, for one song, my band director told me just to use cymbals and hi-hat, nothing else.

I would do intense fills on the cymbals anyway