Are some drums just not tunable?

[_brian_]

Hey lads, starting to give up. I bought a Mapex VX Voyager as I was just a starter & also thought the smaller kit would be better for recording. When assembled I read up and watched lots & lots of tutorials on how to tune drums etc. Eventually I was able to tune them but only with the reso head off. When the two heads were on the sound of them both was just too confusing for me to hear. When I dampened one on the floor the head I was tuning seemed to be dampened in a way that only the higher frequencies could be heard & again I couldn't tune them. I then started just recording with the top heads on & everything sounded ok. I then bought some new heads (Evans G2 Coated) and they're so dead I cant tune them at all. I don't have a lot of money so buying new heads is a pretty big thing. I'm about to chuck my drums out the window I'm so pissed off (and I live on the 3rd floor). I just don't get it, never ever had a problem tuning guitar to anything, i can't read music but can listen & pick up and play a tune very quickly. Has anyone else had this problem? Am I just an idiot or are my drums just crap?

Any help greatly greatly appreciated

[Greg_L]

Dude, it's not the drums, it's you. Tuning drums takes practice and patience. You may want to blame the drums and the heads, but it's operator error.

Take all the heads off and start over. Start with the reso heads. Tune it to where you get the lowest clear pitch you can muster from that shell. Tune each lug to sound exactly the same with light tapping at each lug about an inch in. Flip the drum onto some carpet so the reso head is dampened. Install and tune the batter head the same way to the same pitch as the reso head. When done, the drum will be in tune with itself and you can fine tune from there. Make small adjustments. Don't go turning the key a full turn with every pass. Even 1/4 turn can make a big difference. Be very patient and take your time. It can take a few hours to tune a complete kit with new heads.

[_brian_]

For a strange reason it's a little comforting for someone to tell me it's me & not the drums at fault. I'm going to dedicate the whole day tomorrow for tuning, it's stopping me from playing cause i'm not enjoying what i'm hearing. The lugs are a little difficult to get finger tension on to start off, i've put some vasceline on the tread but that doesn't seem to have made any difference.

[Gear_Junky]

i am not really a drummer - i love playing drums and I'm learning. i can play rock

i also think that potentially it may be heads. not all heads sound good (for the sound you want).

google for "drum tuning bible" - a great resource.

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by Gear_Junky

i am not really a drummer - i love playing drums and I'm learning. i can play rock

i also think that potentially it may be heads. not all heads sound good (for the sound you want).

google for "drum tuning bible" - a great resource.

It's not the heads. Even heads you don't like will tune up, and it's very, very unlikely it's a bad head or shell. With drum tuning problems, it's just about always operator error.

[twsknight]

Is that the kit with the 18" kick? If it is, my dad bought that and I borrowed it off him while I was at uni as it fit better into smaller space. With some O rings he managed to get an awesome sound out of it, even with the heads it came with. I would have put some Remos on it myself, but hey it sounds good enough for me.

I feel your pain though, I got an OCDP snare, and right outta the box it sounded great. Then some prick detuned it before I went on stage at a battle of the bands and it took me an age to get back how I wanted it.

Anyway, as far as I can tell, there's no real science to tuning, just take it slow and steady and use your ears. It's a pain in the ass but it's worth it in the end.

[_brian_]

Man, just don't get it. I tried again with the 12" floor tom reso head like everyone's saying. Whenever the drum starts ringing out and starting to resonate i think i can actually hear the differences inpitch between lugs, the problem is though as soon as I find a lug's too low & try to tune it up to another lug that higher pitched lug ascends in pitch too. The pitched difference between the lugs stay the same (unless I detune it radically) but they both increase together. Somebody shoot me in the head with a big gun please.

Yeah it's the small kit, 18" kick, 8",10",12" toms & 12" snare, a few people on here recommended it to me so it can't be that bad a kit.

[mikeh]

One of the kits I own is a Voyager kit and I use Evans G2 heads on the toms (batter side) - I still have the resonant heads that came with the kit. I have an Evans Emad on the kick. I use some Moon Gel on the toms but that is the only treatment I use.

I get a very good sound from the kit. Granted, I've been playing for almost 50 years and have owned dozens of kits - so I do know how to tune - but I have to suspect that your tuning problems are not the drums or the heads. It's possible you have warped shells or damaged lugs....but that is something you should be able to see.

Keep in mind - it is common that tightening one lug can indeed increase tension at other lugs - this is a particular problem with small drums. First off - make sure you tune in a star pattern (opposite lugs) and remember that sometime you must loosen the lug opposite the lug you think is too tight (to actually reduce the tension at the "problem lug") Pay very close attention to the "ripples" on the head to see where tension is or is not required).

While I'm not a fan of single headed drums....if that helps you get a sound you like, then go for it. If you choose to use resonant heads - I have found that tuning the resonant head slightly higher than the batter will give you the best tone. As discussed, you need to muffle one head whilel tuning the other - bit that is not difficult. The main thing is to get each drum relatively in tune with itself (the same tension/tone at each tuning lug) but keep in mind, the tension problem may not actually be at the lug you think.

Drum tuning is part art and part science - and it does take practise to acquire the skill. Work at it - and please don't toss the drums out the third floor window (that would make them even harder to tune).

[_brian_]

"I get a very good sound from the kit. Granted, I've been playing for almost 50 years and have owned dozens of kits - so I do know how to tune - but I have to suspect that your tuning problems are not the drums or the heads. It's possible you have warped shells or damaged lugs....but that is something you should be able to see."

Yeah the shells certainly don't look warped & the lugs seem to be fine, it really must be me that's the problem . I'm going to have to call it quits tonight as I'm getting too annoyed. I'll start a fresh tomorrow. Part of the problem is that I started playing with a roland mesh head kit but have recently gone acoustic due to money constraints. I may be a novice tuner but I'm not a novice drummer, I'm not getting to play my drums because I can't tune them properly.

[Greg_L]

Another thing....pay little mind to the actual tightness of the lugs. It's the tone of the head at each lug that's important. You may have one lug that feels tighter than the one next to it, but if the pitch is the same, it's good to go.

[RAMI]

I've never had a really good tomato. I've had great sauce, but the tamato just never made it as a hand fruit for me.

[ermghoti]

You have to eat tomatoes at room temperature, not cold. A vine-ripe tomato, rather than the reddish cue balls they sell, in a few slices with a dash of salt... like candy.

[Greg_L]

Tomatos are nasty.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by ermghoti

You have to eat tomatoes at room temperature, not cold. A vine-ripe tomato, rather than the reddish cue balls they sell, in a few slices with a dash of salt... like candy.

Hmmmm....Thanx Captain. I'll check it out!

[Farview]

Originally Posted by _brian_

the problem is though as soon as I find a lug's too low & try to tune it up to another lug that higher pitched lug ascends in pitch too. The pitched difference between the lugs stay the same (unless I detune it radically) but they both increase together. Somebody shoot me in the head with a big gun please.

You are turning the lugs too far and trying to do too much at one lug..

The trick is to equalize the tension of the head across the lugs. If it is really low at one lug, it is also probably low on the lug directly across from it.

Sometimes it's better to loosen the high lug than tighten the loose one. Once you get all the lugs at the same tension, then you can decide if that is the pitch you want. If it isn't, turn all the lugs by the same amount in a star pattern.

[Elton Bear]

Ummmmm... 'kay. Back on Topic, I have that exact kit and it's great. Evans EMAD on the kick, Emperors all round the toms and a coated Ambassador on the snare. I just got it out of the box and tuned it.

Replacing heads makes a MASSIVE difference, esp. to the floor tom & kick. I'm using Remos but there's no reason why your G2's shouldn't do the same job. The only thing I've found with Evans is that you have to tighten them up and whack seven shades of shit out of them before they seat properly.

I have read that drum tuning bible, and as far as I remember it didn't really help, although all the info is correct. I just put the head & rim on the drum, tighten the lugs as tight as possible with fingers, then take each lug (in a circle, don't worry about all this star-shaped nonsense unless you have an old kit) up half a turn. Then another half turn, then in quarter turns until it stops flapping about and sounds like a drum.
I like to have the resonant side a bit higher than the batter, but that's all personal preference.

The only other thing I can think of is that you're not seating the heads properly, so once it's tightened spread your palm over the drum and (slowly) put your weight on it. Then loosen the head and try again.

Drum heads are like the strings on a guitar, they need changing when they're gone, they need tuning correctly, and to sound good they need either "playing in", or stretching a bit when they're new.

[Russtopher]

+1 on the Drum Tuning Bible. Great resource.

Like many of the others have said, just put the heads on and tighten the lugs until they're finger tight then do *maybe* half turns with the key, 1/4 might be a bit better. The advice about tuning lugs opposite of each other to maintain tension is great advice.

It takes practice. My old Mapex kit sounded great.... but it really only had 2 really good tuning ranges, and it took a while for me to find those ranges with the right heads (clear G2s).

My Ludwig kit.... sometimes I feel like I could take a coated single ply head and just lay it on the bearing edge and it would sound good

[_brian_]

Thanks for all the advice lads, I haven't seated the new drum heads as I was told that all it does is damage the head , i think mabye i'm cranking things a little too much when i *think* i've found the problematic lug. I'm also trying to tune them to 12" (F#), 10" (A) 8" (C#) for a song I'm recordng so that's adding to the frustration. I've done it before but with only the batter heads on. The song doesn't sound right if the toms aren't tuned to those pitches. I found a lot of help in the tuning bible pages everyone is talking about. No matter how long I searched on google I couldn't find those very pages I've sent away for 2 new drum keys as well as that may help things.

[Elton Bear]

OH, if you're tuning to one resounding pitch I wouldn't recommend using resonant heads at all.

Originally Posted by Russtopher

The advice about tuning lugs opposite of each other to maintain tension is great advice.

Now, I may be wrong, but I was under the impression this advice is obsolete with modern kits because the hoops and shells are made so precise you don't need to even the tension out across the drum?

Originally Posted by Russtopher

My Ludwig kit.... sometimes I feel like I could take a coated single ply head and just lay it on the bearing edge and it would sound good

You're damn right! I've got me 60s Luddy at home and play it when I'm back from Uni. It sounds even better when you haven't heard it in a while!!

[_brian_]

Originally Posted by Elton Bear

OH, if you're tuning to one resounding pitch I wouldn't recommend using resonant heads at all.

the problem is though, the new heads (g2 coated) sound dead without a reso head, has anyone else found this? The stock heads (Remo UX both batter & reso ) are very ringy when both reso & batter are on, but they seem to cope better with just a batter on (but don't sound great). This is starting to get complicated. Ideally I would have liked a tom range from (low) C# to A to Higher C# but it's well out of the range of the lower tom. Which size of tom would I need for that ballpark pitch?

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by _brian_

the problem is though, the new heads (g2 coated) sound dead without a reso head, has anyone else found this? The stock heads (Remo UX both batter & reso ) are very ringy when both reso & batter are on, but they seem to cope better with just a batter on (but don't sound great). This is starting to get complicated. Ideally I would have liked a tom range from (low) C# to A to Higher C# but it's well out of the range of the lower tom. Which size of tom would I need for that ballpark pitch?

A G2 Coated is a pretty dry, dead-ish head. They really need the help of a reso head or they will sound flat and lifeless, especially on your tiny sized kit. I can't imagine a 12" tom being your low floor-tom.

Anyway, think of the dead drum sounds of the 70's. Those are heavy coated batter heads with no resos. For tuning to a specific pitch, I think you'd do better with some cleaner, more open sounding clear type heads. Like clear G1's on both sides, or clear G2's on top and G1's on bottom.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by Elton Bear

Now, I may be wrong, but I was under the impression this advice is obsolete with modern kits because the hoops and shells are made so precise you don't need to even the tension out across the drum?

You don't need to do it because of the heads and/or hoops anymore. I just gave him that advice because it is easier to keep the tension even across the head when you do it in the star pattern.

When you are good at tuning, you don't need the star pattern anymore.

[_brian_]

I'm going to try & post a sample of what my toms are sounding like at the moment. Bear with me I haven't done this before & I'll have to upload at my local library. So it may take a little while

[_brian_]

toms.wma - 0.10MB

Ok, the high tom is 8" and has just the batter head on (original head) I need this tuned to C#, the floor tom is 12" and I really need it tuned an octave below the high tom but this is completely out with the floor tom's range so have had to tune it to the only other available pitch that doesn't sound awful in the song (F#). The floor tom has the new evans G2 coated batter head on & also the stock resonant head. Although it was a rush job recording the clip I think it gives you an idea of what I'm up against . I think both heads are in tune so why can I get a clean sound with the new evans head? Apparently these particular heads allow you to tune lower than usual but I was able to get a clean tone from the same pitch but with the stock head. i feel I've just wasted my money . Do I need a larger floor tom? If I do what size would you recommend for that lower C# pitch? Remember I am looking for a quiet drum that's able to be tuned low. (the reason I was pointed toward the mapex voyager series)

[Greg_L]

I don't think there's any way you're gonna get that floor tom down to a C#. It sounds pretty good as-is. If the F# works, why not stay there? The high tom sounds kinda weak. Put a reso head on it. You did a good job tuning to a pitch though. I played along with my guitar and you nailed it.