Hypothetically Speaking - 1984 Super Champ

[soundchaser59]

Suppose your next door neighbour had a 1984 Black Face Fender Super Champ. The thing is kinda beat up, water stains on it, cobwebs, basement crud, needs tubes, a speaker, and a cap job......but you know from experience it could be a great sounding amp. It's basically a Rivera amp, since that's about the time Paul left Fender. I believe the Super Champ might actually be Rivera's original claim to fame....

Anyway, if you include let's say $300-400 for a complete cap job and retube, $200 for a killer alnico speaker, then how much would you offer the guy for the amp?

Mint condition Super Champs are on ebay for anywhere from $700 to maybe $900 bucks. I offered him $150 bucks 3 years ago and he refused, but that was before either one of us had any clue what the thing would be worth IF it were in mint condition.

The other factor in my favor is the guy got it new 24 years ago and he has never touched a guitar in his life. He doesn't play, and he has never let the amp out of his possession. He may have let his brothers play it or his father in law play it some, but he has had it since it was bought new. I think it got some water on it from sitting in a leaky moldy basement.....but I have played thru it before and it was mostly ok, but I could tell it needs tubes and speaker at the very least.

What do you guys think would be your top dollar to offer for something like that??

[pohaku]

I bought one in really good condition (only a small hole in the grille) about a year ago (with the foot switch - make sure you get the foot switch) for $600 at my local guitar store. My sense is that the price on these has come down with all the new small high quality combo amps out there. I think the price peaked several years ago when they were a cult amp and people were getting a grand for these. Given the required work that you described, it sounds like $150 isn't too far off. You might want to shop around if he isn't inclined. I almost bought a Princeton Reverb II (which is essentially the Princeton version of the Super Champ) for $600 locally and it was in near mint shape. So the amps are out there. FWIW I once owned a Twin II which is, of course, the Twin version of this amp and it was a very nice amp -- louder and heavier than any other combo I've ever owned though. Ultimately traded it for something smaller and more manageable.

[soundchaser59]

Thanks..... good info.

And now I find there is a Red Knob Princeton Chorus on ebay for about $200-250! That sounds like a great deal compared to the washed out super champ, ayyy?

[soundchaser59]

But the red knob Princeton is solid state?

[pohaku]

Others in that line up that are worth looking at if you can find one are the Deluxe II and the Concert II. All are Rivera designed amps with high gain channels with progressively higher wattage (maxing out at the Twin II). In all cases, you should try and get the foot switch with the amp because it is difficult (if not impossible) to get a replacement. People sell the switch alone for over a $100. $600 seems to be a typical price for most of these from what I've seen, with the Twin commanding a bit more. There were other amps in the II line up, but they are solid state (e.g., Harvard II). The Super Champ, Champ II, Princeton Reverb II, Deluxe II, Concert II and Twin II were all tube amps. If I didn't already have a bunch of amps and wasn't on the verge of exceeding my wife's tolerance for more electronic gear, I'd be looking for a Deluxe or Concert II myself.

[soundchaser59]

It's confirmed....

The red knob Princeton Chorus on ebay is a solid state amp!

Oh well.....

[mrface2112]

Originally Posted by soundchaser59

Anyway, if you include let's say $300-400 for a complete cap job and retube, $200 for a killer alnico speaker, then how much would you offer the guy for the amp?

the question is does it NEED tubes, a cap job and a speaker? does it power on and play without problems? or would it just sound better with new tubes and speaker? or does it actually have problems when powering up and sitting at idle?

the way i see it, tubes and a cap job can't be (or shouldn't be) factored into the cost of an amp when buying/selling. do you include a charge for "recent oil change" when you're selling a car?

this is a used tube amp. you just need to assume that you're probably going to need a cap job at some point--it might not be now, but it'll happen. and unless the tubes are shot, chances are the old ones in the amp are better than any of the current manufacture tubes anyway. why replace em?

the only exception, IMO, is when the caps are so leaky that you can hear in the amp that they're failing. then again, that's a crapshoot. if he's not using the amp, why would he care if the filter caps are failing? you might try to get something off b/c of that.....but again, that's just part of buying a used tube amp.

a blown speaker is another thing, though--you can get a little leverage there, maybe $50-75?

anyway, if it's in really gnarly shape and the speaker's blown, i'd aim maybe $100 under whatever fair market value is. but if the amp doesn't have any real problems and you'd just "like" to upgrade the tubes, speaker, etc., that's more your problem than his.


cheers,
wade

[pohaku]

I'm not entirely tracking the logic here. If the caps and tubes were failing and the speaker was blown, I'd certainly factor the cost of repair into my offer. If I can buy the same amp in good working and cosmetic condition for $600-700, why would I want to pay only $100 less or so ($500-600) for the amp if I'm then going to need to spend another $400-500 to get it back to reasonable working condition? I'd be better off buying someone else's amp that is already in good working condition for $600-700.

It's not any different than buying a house that needs a new roof. I'm going to adjust the price I'm willing to pay based on the cost of a comparable house with a sound roof less the cost of re-roofing the house. Sure all houses will need a new roof (or two or three or four) somewhere down the line, but if it needs a new roof NOW, the question is - who gets to pay for it? The Seller could reroof it before selling it and then ask a price that reflects a sound roof, or the Buyer can pay for the new roof and discount the price the house would have commanded if it had a sound roof by the cost of reroofing.

I agree though regarding the issue of whether it really NEEDS new caps, new tubes and a new speaker now, or whether any of those fixes would simply be desirable (although not currently needed). If the fixes are elective, then it's the Buyer's cost.

[mrface2112]

Originally Posted by pohaku

If the fixes are elective, then it's the Buyer's cost.

that's exactly the point i was trying to make.

it was just late and the brain wasn't firing on all cylinders.


cheers,
wade

[pohaku]

Originally Posted by mrface2112

that's exactly the point i was trying to make.

it was just late and the brain wasn't firing on all cylinders.


cheers,
wade

I know the feeling well. I tend to post late at night and then the next day wonder what I was thinking at the time.

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by pohaku

I'm not entirely tracking the logic here. If the caps and tubes were failing and the speaker was blown, I'd certainly factor the cost of repair into my offer. If I can buy the same amp in good working and cosmetic condition for $600-700, why would I want to pay only $100 less or so ($500-600) for the amp if I'm then going to need to spend another $400-500 to get it back to reasonable working condition? I'd be better off buying someone else's amp that is already in good working condition for $600-700.

It's not any different than buying a house that needs a new roof. I'm going to adjust the price I'm willing to pay based on the cost of a comparable house with a sound roof less the cost of re-roofing the house. Sure all houses will need a new roof (or two or three or four) somewhere down the line, but if it needs a new roof NOW, the question is - who gets to pay for it? The Seller could reroof it before selling it and then ask a price that reflects a sound roof, or the Buyer can pay for the new roof and discount the price the house would have commanded if it had a sound roof by the cost of reroofing.

I agree though regarding the issue of whether it really NEEDS new caps, new tubes and a new speaker now, or whether any of those fixes would simply be desirable (although not currently needed). If the fixes are elective, then it's the Buyer's cost.

None of these factors has much to do with anything; the primary consideration is what the amp is worth to the guy who owns it. What the buyer intends to do in terms of repairs and/or upgrades and which are necessary and which are optional isn't the potential seller's problem. Just ask him what he wants for the amp. You can use the rest of it to try and talk him down, but what the amp is worth to him is what counts.

[pohaku]

Originally Posted by ggunn

None of these factors has much to do with anything; the primary consideration is what the amp is worth to the guy who owns it. What the buyer intends to do in terms of repairs and/or upgrades and which are necessary and which are optional isn't the potential seller's problem. Just ask him what he wants for the amp. You can use the rest of it to try and talk him down, but what the amp is worth to him is what counts.

Actually, the question from the OP was what would be a top dollar OFFER for the amp. So all those factors have a lot to do with how much a buyer might offer the owner for the amp. Whether the owner ultimately thinks the offer is adequate and what the owner might actually want for the amp is another issue.