Kick issues.

[ripingitar]

I used to frequent this forum but decided to hire someone to record, mix and master my last 2 cds which turned out great. However,due to a lack of band income.. im back on the wagon doing it myself! I have new track that has a great kick sound but..my Drummer is killing the kick at some points and at some points its the right volume. I have ideas on how to treat this of course but
was interested in how ( besides re tracking an otherwise good take) any of you deal with this in mixdown? I tried replacing the kick but didnt like the result, his kick is better and i hate dealing with sensitivity issues when sampling a kick it seems Theres always some hiits that can be missed or extras that show up! anyway thanks for the input.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by ripingitar

my Drummer is killing the kick at some points and at some points its the right volume.

The problem is your drummer, and that's where you guys should try fixing it. Let him know he's got to work on his kick technique in the studio because the recording process will expose his flaws more than playing live will, and he desn't want his flaws exposed, does he?

But if he insists on being a subpar drummer, thn just try laying come compression over his track to even out the levels.

G.

[ripingitar]

Ive already applied compression and its still an issue.

[carlosguardia]

Then set the compression ratio higher and threshold lower...

[ripingitar]

Ok ill try to tweak it further, Thanks.

[andyhix]

If it's just a few hits, cut and paste a better hit over them. Depending on how much kick is in your OH's you may need to cut and paste there too...which may or may not work, depending on the amount of other stuff (cymbals) going on in the OH track(s). If that's the case, maybe a combo of kick replacement in the kick track and a multiband compressor to squish the lows only in the OH's?

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I was going to say, if it's just a couple of really out of control hits, I'd just go in and manually knock them down in the editor. Get them in line with the rest of the big peaks, and then the compressor should be able to handle the rest of the job much easier.

G.

[giraffe]

tell him to stop hitting the kick like a girl.

[ripingitar]

Thats what I was think of doing at first glen just editing the Wav. file in spots to bring those hard hits down .. then compresss, i guess I was looking for other suggestions but ill start by sticking to that. Thanks again

[jmorris]

have you tried automation on the track? In sonar I can create a vol. envelope and adj. that track vol.

[bigtoe]

what type of compression are you using?

Mike

[ripingitar]

No I havent tried Automation, But I may .. I was simply gonna highlight the hard hits and reduce the volume some before compressing. Im using the cakewalk plug in compressor. Theres a couple more In sonar 7 I havent tried, Im gonna experiment more with it tonight
I just started mixing it and the kick was the biggest issue that jumped out at me.

[Dax Productions]

The first thing I would try is a cut and paste approach. Single hits, or maybe there is a similar measure elsewhere in the song you can just drag over in grid mode. Keep in mind that you'll have to edit all the drum tracks together. If the kick is too hard on the kick track, it's also too hard in the overheads.

Otherwise, that vintage channel plug in sonar would be great for smoothing out a kick track. I've used it for just that a few times.

[bigtoe]

pardon me for not knowing too much about virtual compressors...

i've always had the most luck with a dbx 161 or the like...something VCA based. a behringer composer can rule in this scene. if it's really out of hand you can chain a couple comps together...this works better than using one heavy. i've had the most luck using a vca for a limiter (161) and using a fet (1176) for the compressor.

a place to start: get two comps going...set one around 4:1 with a 'medium' attack and quickish release and knock off a dB or less on the "normal" hits and enough to grab the heavy ones pretty good. set the second comp above 10:1 (as high as you can go with it sounding natural engaged) with a med/fastish attack and a quick release. this one should only take off a couple dbs of the hardest hits.

the 1st compressor will make the envelope of the kicks more consistant, no matter how they are played. the 2nd one, acting as a limiter, will really stop the heavy kicks from poking thru.

if this sounds unnatural...try copying the track and mixing an unprocessed kick in with the processed kick. it can do wonders.

if it's really bad fly the other kicks in...but this would be a place to start on the compressor side of things. i'd start with this.

i've also had luck kicking a kick though an amplifer pretty heavy, micing it up, and gating it and the mixing it back in with the kick.

lots of tricks you can throw at this one!

good luck,

Mike

[jmorris]

Originally Posted by Dax Productions

The first thing I would try is a cut and paste approach. Single hits, or maybe there is a similar measure elsewhere in the song you can just drag over in grid mode. Keep in mind that you'll have to edit all the drum tracks together. If the kick is too hard on the kick track, it's also too hard in the overheads.

Otherwise, that vintage channel plug in sonar would be great for smoothing out a kick track. I've used it for just that a few times.

Too much work/time getting timing right for me. Wht not just create envelope in sonar..its a piece of cake. No time corection.

[jmorris]

Originally Posted by andyhix

If it's just a few hits, cut and paste a better hit over them. Depending on how much kick is in your OH's you may need to cut and paste there too...which may or may not work, depending on the amount of other stuff (cymbals) going on in the OH track(s). If that's the case, maybe a combo of kick replacement in the kick track and a multiband compressor to squish the lows only in the OH's?

I'never had enoguh kick coming through OH mic to worry about,room mics yes. I am not a fan of comp. on random kick hit as if you push it too much there is a sonic change that can be worse that the loud kick you are trying to correct.
.............Vol. envelope!

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

I was going to say, if it's just a couple of really out of control hits, I'd just go in and manually knock them down in the editor.

Originally Posted by ripingitar

Thats what I was think of doing at first glen just editing the Wav. file in spots to bring those hard hits down

Originally Posted by jmorris

have you tried automation on the track? In sonar I can create a vol. envelope and adj. that track vol.

Originally Posted by ripingitar

No I havent tried Automation, But I may .. I was simply gonna highlight the hard hits and reduce the volume some before compressing.

There are three different ways of doing more or less the same thing; using the automation rubberband, highlighting the peak and the reducing volume of the highlighted area, or going in with the pencil tool and re-drawing the peak.

When I first referred to manual editing, that covered any one of those three methods, whichever your most comfortable or expediant with. It seems pretty much a matter of personal preference as far as which one people prefer, it really depends upon what you're used to. But those are all ways of manually editing the peak to reduce it's volume, all will work for this purpose equally well, and for all intents and purposes are all going to be sonically transparent (which is why I like using it so much more than extreme or double-stage compression.)

The key here, IMHO, regardless of which of the three volume control methods you use, is that you use it to tame the extreme peaks on the kick track, the wild ones which are a cut above (pun intended) the more "standard" peaks. For example, if you have a kick track where most of the peaks are at around (just for example) -8dBFS, give or take, but you have a half dozen or a dozen or so misfires that shoot up to -2 or -3dBFS, you can attack just those by 5-6dB just to bring them in line. From there, if you wanted to overaly some compresson on the whole track to tighten everything up just a bit more, you can do that then.

The whole idea is that you avoid trying to bring the extreme peaks down with compression and wind up over-compressing the normal peaks, and at the same time avoid having to replace or edit every peak on the track, which is awfully time consuming and sometimes artifical sounding.

G.

[ripingitar]

Thanks Glen, lts only in a few spots I have to tweak the levels, Ill try one of those methods you mentioned first.

[jndietz]

You could snag a demo version of Drumagog, take out a sample of your kick drum, and have it trigger each hit. That way they would all be very even.

Does the demo of Drumagog let you do that?

[Dax Productions]

Originally Posted by jmorris

Too much work/time getting timing right for me. Wht not just create envelope in sonar..its a piece of cake. No time corection.

Well, I guess it would depend on the type of music that you're working with. For most of the stuff I do, I want my drums pretty much right on the grid anyways, so its no problem to grab another section and slide it over. In fact, from an arrangement standpoint, I prefer to work this way. But I can see how it would be difficult if you're not concerned about/don't want your drums locking right into the click/grid.

[Dogbreath]

I'm kinda in the same boat...inconsistent drummer (me ) and I usually just do the copy/paste thing.
And it's usually just the kick. It either smacks my peak or sounds like a girly kick.

Anyway, another copy/paste guy here.
Peace-n-stuff

[carlosguardia]

Sonar's better compressor IMHO is the one in the Vintage Channel VC64!

[Golden]

Originally Posted by giraffe

tell him to stop hitting the kick like a girl.

Meg White being the exception though, right?

[ripingitar]

Well I highlighted the hard hits and lowered the actual gain on each hard hit or section then lowered the threshold on my compressor and it seems to have done the trick. Thanks for all the input and ideas! Had no problem with bleed through onto overheads. I was gonna do the drumagog thing but 1. I loved the kick sound we recorded (d112) and 2. Im having trouble installing Drumagog on Vista! anyway Thanks.

[ripingitar]

I have all the previous issues worked out.. I like a very prominent kick in my mixes . Im in the mixdown process now and To get the balance i want my kick track always ends up louder than the rest of the mixed down wav. file( kick visibly peaks beyond the rest of the file) and although it sounds good it unmastered it causes issues when i ATTEMPT any kind of mastering to increase volume etc it always sounds sqished and doesnt cut through as well.. My mixes sound best when left at the mixing stage. Maybe i need someone more skilled at mastering to take over that part of the process?? I feel comforatble with my mixing skills but anytime I apply compression /eq /limiter to my final mix It ends up worse ??
maybe my problem is in my mixing >???