controlling cymbal bleed

[thomaswomas]

hi everyone,

i'm looking for a few tips on how to get rid of cymbal bleed through tom mics. throughout all my time recording and mixing, the one thing i always have trouble with is this.

i try and eq the cymbals out but the frequencies i need to cut tend to be the ones which add attack to the toms resulting in the toms sounding muffled. so when i try and add attack and some brightness to the toms, the cymbals come out too much and sound a bit harsh.

i've tried editing each tom track which works some times but for certain tracks where there are quick tom rolls with cymbal crashes mixed in, you can hear the edits in the mix. i've also tried gates but this has the same effect.

has anyone got any tips on how to deal with this problem. what eg settings do you guys use? i could do with comparing someone elses settings to mine

thanks

[SouthSIDE Glen]

For this type of problem EQ probably isn't going to help you too much, for the very kind pf reasons you found out; the two parts of the kit just share too many important frequencies. A low pass rolloff on the toms above 5k or so may help some, but that'll still let most of the cymbals through too, probably.

First off, ask the drummer not to go so apeshit animal on the cymbals the way he might likely be doing, and to put more authority and control into his tom hits as well. IME, as often as not, such problems are as much sloppy studio drumming technique as anything else.

Second, try re-positioning your cardioids (they are cadioids, I assume) in such a way whereas their deadest points - ~140° and 220° are facing the most obtrusive cymbal(s).

If the first two don't cut it (though in most cases they should), you could always try to position your mics under the toms pointing up, switching the polarity on that line.

G.

[petermiller]

I always from day one as a drummer moved my cymbals farther away from the toms when recording if isolation was needed on that track. But you will find most drummers are unmovable on repositioning anything but try it if you can.

[Talldog]

On a similar note... I have been having the same problem but with the hi hat bleeding into the snare mic. I have used an sm 57, a c418, and a beyer m201 with no difference (in bleed, not sound). The mic is angled so the HH is in the dead spot as much as possible. This has been with multiple drummers. Some more, some less apeshit. Gating sometines helps but you still get the sound when the gate opens. Sometimes the HH is louder than the snare. Any sage words?

[NL5]

Originally Posted by Talldog

Any sage words?

Post some pics. Something is wrong, or all the drummers are hitting the hats way harder than the snare, which I doubt is the case.

[Daisy]

The most important thing to keep in mind, and I can't stress this enough ... is that, in a recording situation, the hi-hats shouldn't be open for any more than a second or two at a time.

The effect of open hi-hats on a snare track are not something that can be minimized by any natural methods, other than sample replacement (i.e. drumagog).

Let me put it to you this way: A hi-hat is not a ride cymbal, and it shouldn't be played like one.

I will repeat, just in case I didn't make it clear: A hi-hat is not a ride cymbal. It is not a crash cymbal. It is meant to be played closed ... with a few random openings only for accent.

Thank you.

[Talldog]

I don't have pics. sorry. To be clearer, I meant what I think Daisy is saying.....When the snare is not being hit the hh is as loud as the snare. This IS when it is played open as a steady beat. And having the shit smashed out of it as well. I am all analog so using samples is not an option...sort of a snob that way.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

To say that the hat is as loud as the snare and then complain about bleed is kinda like saying I jabbed a hot poker up my nose and damn does it hurt . The natural response is to say, either don't jam that poker up your nose or accept the pain when you do.

Think about it; if you have the hat in the null of your cardioid and its as loud as the snare that the cardioid is jammed into, that means that the drummer is actually playing the hat LOUDER than the snare. That's a problem.

If the hat is louder than the snare, I'd say either tell the drummer to play the snare like a snare and hit the damn thing harder, play the hat like a hat and don hit the damn thing so hard, or accept the fat that the drummer plays the hat is as loud as the snare and embrace the bleed, because that's the blind dog drumming technique he's giving you to work with. That dog just won't hunt.

G.

[NL5]

Originally Posted by Talldog

And having the shit smashed out of it as well

Put a gate before the compressor, or adjust the compressor. I still think you have it mic'd wrong though.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by Daisy

I will repeat, just in case I didn't make it clear: A hi-hat is not a ride cymbal. It is not a crash cymbal. It is meant to be played closed ... with a few random openings only for accent.

I like open hats, ok your gaon get bleed but if the mic and kit are set up well and the drummer is good then there shouldnt be a problem.

Eck

[Chris Shaeffer]

Originally Posted by thomaswomas

\
has anyone got any tips on how to deal with this problem.

Make sure the the cymbals sound good on the tracks they are bleeding onto. Drums bleed, especially if they are played inconsistently or very hard. Sometimes the best you can do is make friends with the bleed. Double check all the mics for phase issues and make sure the kit sounds good with all the mics up.

Not the ideal situation, but its sometimes better than trying to get an unskilled drummer to alter their technique.

[thomaswomas]

thanks for all the advice and tips. i forgot to mention in my original post that i'm a drummer and play the drums on most of the recordings i do, unless i'm recording another band.

i understand all the issues with playing hi-hats too hard or the snare too soft, but i'm a fairly competent drummer and i've done quite a few sessions in various studios with different producers and only once i've been asked to raise the height of my cymbals.

that's why i'm a little confused. if my playing levels and consistency are fine for those guys, then it must be down to how i'm recording my kit or how i'm mixing.

one thing that leans towards the suggestion that it's a mix thing is that my last band had one of our self recorded demos mixed by a top mixing engineer and the difference in the cymbal sound between our mix and his was huge.

i should add that on the odd occasion, the bleed sounds good and adds some body to the cymbals but obviously it would be nice to have bit more control.

anyways, thanks for your time guys

[bigtoe]

deessers (frequency dependent compressor) like the inexpensive dbx 263 are fantastically effective for getting cymbals and HH out of other mics. i'm sure setting up a deesser either 'in the box' or with a decent comp like the rnc and a side chain would be equally effective.

they work like a charm. i've created snare tracks out of what seem to be hi hat tracks. check em out.

Mike