2 bus?

[JTC111]

I've come across some posts where some piece of gear was being discussed and the question came up as to whether it could be used on the "2 bus." I have no idea what that means, so maybe some kind person could explain it to me?

Thanks.

I swear, I should have to pay tuition for what I learn around here.

[mixsit]

Typically the main stereo output- Any one output/fader that combines more than one signal = a 'bus. A stereo bus = '2 bus.

[pipelineaudio]

Usually this is a term for the stereo summing buss on a console, but used in this way when they are about to try and sell you something to stick across it to ruin your audio

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Usually this is a term for the stereo summing buss on a console, but used in this way when they are about to try and sell you something to stick across it to ruin your audio

Okay, forgive my retardation, but I have a couple more questions...

what is a "stereo summing buss"?
and
what does it mean to "stick" something across my stereo summing buss?

[pipelineaudio]

This is the point where all the channels of your console are mixed together into one stereo channel or two channels.

Often your DAW mixer or your hardware console will have an insert point in here where you can stick something in it. Some are helpful, some are not.

Because of the incredibly agressive and shameless nature of advertising and the near monopoly conditions of some of the gear and magazines, verses the normally very low level of actual job related education of modern audio engineers, marketing departments target people with nonsens that they MUST HAVE in "the 2 buss"

Watch this video:

http://www.wackywavinginflatablearmflailingtubeman.com/

Now replace "whackwavinginflatablearmflalingtubeman" every time he says it with "2buss compressor" or "2 buss eq'

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

This is the point where all the channels of your console are mixed together into one stereo channel or two channels.

Often your DAW mixer or your hardware console will have an insert point in here where you can stick something in it. Some are helpful, some are not.

Because of the incredibly agressive and shameless nature of advertising and the near monopoly conditions of some of the gear and magazines, verses the normally very low level of actual job related education of modern audio engineers, marketing departments target people with nonsens that they MUST HAVE in "the 2 buss"

Watch this video:

http://www.wackywavinginflatablearmflailingtubeman.com/

Now replace "whackwavinginflatablearmflalingtubeman" every time he says it with "2buss compressor" or "2 buss eq'

Okay, I'm getting it now. But why would one piece of gear, let's say a compresor, be any more or less suited to be used on the 2buss than any other compressor?

[pipelineaudio]

Well for instance, in a DAW during a mix, a lookahead limiter could be 100% sure of letting peaks through

[Golden]

Ok, I'm going to get bashed but this is my opinion....

In digital recording, the quest of the engineer seems to be "glue"... something to hold the mix together or to give it "analog warmth"...

Now, this tends to be because digital does not "add" any "character" to the recorded tracks and the mix... What you give digital, is what is played back... It's unforgiving.... <<<< that's what I mean, I guess.

Some people seem to think that by inserting a "2 buss" (I call it a "stereo buss") comp, you will attain the wonder of analog... That glue, and also a louder and punchy sound... This is also kinda like mastering while you mix.

Anyway, I'm stopping there...

It's not the way I work... Nonetheless, people do it...

Just my opinion on the subject.

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Well for instance, in a DAW during a mix, a lookahead limiter could be 100% sure of letting peaks through

But is that really the standard or is it a matter of preference? For example, are there people who still reach for the Manely ELOP even if a lookahead limiter of some type is available?

[Golden]

I think most guys reach for a mastering comp of some sort. Like the psp master comp... something with very light compression. something with the 2buss in mind...

[Massive Master]

It's not necessarily a "digital thing" either... Analog mixing also. A lot of engineers mix into a compressor on the 2-buss. But there are certainly (in digital AND analog) units that seem to work well for the purpose (Manley's Variable Mu, Crane Song's STC8, Pendulum's OCL) and units that just don't (LA2A's, 1176's, EL-Op's in general - Most compressors for that matter).

As usual, "no rules" - - But you're generally looking for a little "glue" and a tiny whisker (1-2dB) of gain reduction without making it terribly obvious.

If it makes a difference, I would specifically recommend against any sort of limiting on the main buss during mixing... If you need one, you're mixing (or something in the mix is) too hot.

[pipelineaudio]

There is a very very easy rule to follow about the mix buss.

Repeat this anytime you even consider following for Marketing hype about digital needing this or that.

Just say in your head:

"If you HAVE to ask, leave it off and let the mastering engineer have at it."

If you aren't sure about what or why with a device in the mix output, either leave it out or route around it so the mastering engineer has the option to work with it unmolested.

If you are working with a DAW you can always mess with it in a 2 track editor anyhow, and similar in analog

[JTC111]

So when working on the 2-bus, is that pretty much the mastering phase? If so, then this isn't much of a concern for me since I have no plans on mastering my next cd myself.

And regarding that, would most mastering engineers be cool with me hanging around while it's worked on?

I'd really like to learn more and I'm pretty good at picking up things by observing. I probably did about 20% of the ProTools editing during the mixing phase of my cd and all I knew about it at the time was from watching my engineer do it and from asking him questions.

[NL5]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

"If you HAVE to ask, leave it off and let the mastering engineer have at it."

I agree with this 110%, but at the same time, how else you gonna learn? I mix thru a comp on everything except metal. I don't like the subtle softening of the comp on that style of music. I've also learned though to maintain my levels properly, and keep the buss comp to 1-3 db compression max......

[MOFO Pro]

I'd go as far as to say... if you're sending it out for mastering... don't compress the buss even if you know what you're doing... why fight the person you're paying to do this... why limit their options...

[NL5]

Originally Posted by MOFO Pro

I'd go as far as to say... if you're sending it out for mastering... don't compress the buss even if you know what you're doing... why fight the person you're paying to do this... why limit their options...

What if it adds a texture to the music that you like? I leave them plenty of room to "do their thing", but a slight buss compressor can do wonderful things. Plus, how many commercial releases are done on an SSL with the SSL buss comp across the 2 buss?

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by MOFO Pro

I'd go as far as to say... if you're sending it out for mastering... don't compress the buss even if you know what you're doing... why fight the person you're paying to do this... why limit their options...

Might depend on the mastering. I've removed comps a few time that added movement and spice to the songs just to have them come back louder but static. Somehow I don't see (at the admittedly modest project level) the mastering guys really spending the added effort that can make a song move' or groove.. better.

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by NL5

What if it adds a texture to the music that you like? I leave them plenty of room to "do their thing", but a slight buss compressor can do wonderful things. Plus, how many commercial releases are done on an SSL with the SSL buss comp across the 2 buss?

Like I said..

[pipelineaudio]

Yeah, some people use a compressor or other devices on the master buss while they are mixing as part of their palette.

Those are people who "dont have to ask"

I awlays look at these questions as a studio charging bands perspective, so thats why I forget sometimes about learning the tricks.

A good way to learn is to mess with two tracks, especially ones from the late 70's and 80's and stick compressors on them and things and see what it does to the song as a whole.

[mixsit]

This sould be in the big 'Do you put a limiter on..' thread.

[Massive Master]

Originally Posted by JTC111

And regarding that, would most mastering engineers be cool with me hanging around while it's worked on?

I don't work nearly as many attended sessions as I used to - I'd say that 10 years ago, it was 80/20 attended/non-attended. Now it's probably exactly the opposite.

But I'd shy away from anywhere that wouldn't want you there... I'm not saying to have issues with unattended sessions -- But the places that say that they'll charge you twice as much or what not for attended sessions... That's fishy.

[MOFO Pro]

Originally Posted by NL5

What if it adds a texture to the music that you like? I leave them plenty of room to "do their thing", but a slight buss compressor can do wonderful things. Plus, how many commercial releases are done on an SSL with the SSL buss comp across the 2 buss?

And how many people in this forum are mixing on an SSL??

It's kind of like cleaning the house before the housekeeper shows up, or washing your cloths before sending them to the cleaner...

But seriously,

I understand your point, and it's well taken. If you have a signature sound, from a particular piece, that you want to impart on the entire mix... then yes by all means send it through... I'm really addressing the home recorders who might be considering sending the buss through an RNC or equivilent because they read it here.

I'm surprised Massive hasn't chimed in with some of the horror stories about the squashed 'pre-masters" that he's recieved... Most mastering houses would prefer you skip the compressor on the bus...

[NL5]

Originally Posted by MOFO Pro

And how many people in this forum are mixing on an SSL??

It's kind of like cleaning the house before the housekeeper shows up, or washing your cloths before sending them to the cleaner...

But seriously,

I understand your point, and it's well taken. If you have a signature sound, from a particular piece, that you want to impart on the entire mix... then yes by all means send it through... I'm really addressing the home recorders who might be considering sending the buss through an RNC or equivilent because they read it here.

I'm surprised Massive hasn't chimed in with some of the horror stories about the squashed 'pre-masters" that he's recieved... Most mastering houses would prefer you skip the compressor on the bus...

"Home Recording" cover's a WIDE range of people. It is getting very common to see extremely high end gear in home studios. Heck, gearwise, I am somewhat high end, but there are a lot of nicer homestudios out there, and I wouldn't hesitate to strap a comp on the mix buss......

As far as the SSL, my point was really that pro's do it all the time. Want pro results? Learn to do it like the pro's. A mix comp won't ruin a mix - the nut on the controls will.........

[MOFO Pro]

Originally Posted by NL5

A mix comp won't ruin a mix - the nut on the controls will.........

My point exactly...

[MOFO Pro]

And I find it slightly ironic to find myself on opposite sides of the compression question on two seperate threads at the same time...