I don't understand outboard gear

[jndietz]

I've taught myself the past few years using only plugins and stuff that comes with the recording software I have. Where can I learn more about outboard gear and their pros and cons? How does outboard gear play into a mixdown? How does it all get hooked up?

[Benyah]

If you haven't needed it so far then don't start now. If you don't know what you are doing it's more of a hassle than of advantage. If you have grown with plugins then stay with them. Good outboard costs a hell of a lot more than good plugins so get yourself a good mic, a good preamp, an interface with good converters and do the rest in you DAW, it'll save time, money and trouble.

[xstatic]

Originally Posted by Benyah

If you haven't needed it so far then don't start now. If you don't know what you are doing it's more of a hassle than of advantage. If you have grown with plugins then stay with them. Good outboard costs a hell of a lot more than good plugins so get yourself a good mic, a good preamp, an interface with good converters and do the rest in you DAW, it'll save time, money and trouble.

I would reccomend exactly the opposite. Personally, if you do not understand it, then I would be out there trying to learn about it. Not necessarily for the purpose of actually using it, but for the purpose of understanding more about signal flow, techniques, and just general audio architecture and principles. Learning more about that stuff does not mean you have to run out and buy stuff, but understanding it should open up new doors for you.

In my opinion, there is a good chance that if you do not understand how hardware sets up and routes, then there is also a good chance that you don't completely understand your plugins either. This doesn't mean you can't do good work, or advance yourself, but it does mean that you may be missing a lot of opprtunities in your own work. It is really important to understand, at least to a certain extent, WHY certain things happen when you turn certain knobs (even software knobs). Until you understand why each thing changes the way it does, then you can't really understand WHEN it should be used, and just as importantly when it shouldn't be used. General knowledge of the whole standard signal path can really open up your choices and the way you do things. I can't think of any great resources right now, but I am sure someone will chime in soon with some good resources for basic audio

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by xstatic

I would reccomend exactly the opposite. Personally, if you do not understand it, then I would be out there trying to learn about it.

That's some good free advice. I've learned more in a week on this board about my gear and gear I might want to buy than I've learned from every operation's manual and gear catalog I've ever read.

[whattaguy]

Originally Posted by JTC111

That's some good free advice. I've learned more in a week on this board about my gear and gear I might want to buy than I've learned from every operation's manual and gear catalog I've ever read.

"...and gear I might want to buy..."

That's why you must run...run as far away as you can from these boards. Pretty soon you will "need" everything.

[Daisy]

Most plugins that you are probably familiar with are either directly intentional emulations of hardware counterparts ... or loosely-based on one or several outboard units.

If you know how to use a plugin, then outboard gear isn't a huge stretch. They just have knobs and buttons on them that you have to use your hands and fingers with, rather than a mouse.

[NL5]

Originally Posted by Daisy

Most plugins that you are probably familiar with are either directly intentional emulations of hardware counterparts ... or loosely-based on one or several outboard units.

If you know how to use a plugin, then outboard gear isn't a huge stretch. They just have knobs and buttons on them that you have to use your hands and fingers with, rather than a mouse.

yes, but how to route things is something a lot of people don't understand. You should at least understand how it works and is normally routed. I'm a firm believer in knowing the rules before you try and break them.

[Daisy]

Originally Posted by NL5

yes, but how to route things is something a lot of people don't understand. You should at least understand how it works and is normally routed. I'm a firm believer in knowing the rules before you try and break them.

I must be getting old. I might be taking for granted that even those without any outboard processors at least have a rudimentary understanding of the idea of "input" and/or "output" as it relates to their mic pres, sound cards, and whatever else they might be using. Out ... in.

I'm a firm believer that if you're even considering getting in to this whole audio racket as just a hobby, then that should be something that you can intuitively pick up. If not, then it might be a long and difficult ride.

[NL5]

Originally Posted by Daisy

I must be getting old. I might be taking for granted that even those without any outboard processors at least have a rudimentary understanding of the idea of "input" and/or "output" as it relates to their mic pres, sound cards, and whatever else they might be using. Out ... in.

I'm a firm believer that if you're even considering getting in to this whole audio racket as just a hobby, then that should be something that you can intuitively pick up. If not, then it might be a long and difficult ride.

Routing goes WAY beyond "in's" and "out's" though. As an example, some of my favorite tricks are done with the fader pulled all the way down.....

Also, I 100% disagree with it being "intuitive". In fact, most musicians,in my experience, think they will be able to get a great sound because they know what sounds good. It REALLY isn't just a matter of knowing what sounds good. If it were that easy, this forum would be unnecessary.

[wreckd504]

What tricks is that NL5?

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by whattaguy

That's why you must run...run as far away as you can from these boards. Pretty soon you will "need" everything.

Not until I empty my checkbook.

[jndietz]

Well, where can I learn about it?

[antichef]

Everything I know about hooking up outboard gear I learned from reading that part of the instructions that came with my DAW software (Logic Express) and my interface manual (MOTU Traveler).

Oh, and I pretty much don't know a thing -- I can't wait to get one of the Group Buy pres, so I can try it out with the EQ stage. Having the necessary physical ins and outs seems key, but I'm sure there are many approaches. But seriously, any documentation you have for your hardware/software is a good place to start, assuming it's covered, since you'll likely have to understand a mix of standard and proprietary terminology to get anything working, and that's where you'll find the right terminology for your setup.

[Daisy]

Originally Posted by NL5

Routing goes WAY beyond "in's" and "out's" though.

Well, I must be a damn genius, then.

I figured out all by myself how to plug a quarter-inch cable in to the output of one device and to the input of another device.

Hey, I don't expect the a novice to figure out how to side-chain, patch effects through the inserts or send/returns ... or even hook up a patch bay by intuition.

But I do think a reasonably competent person ... should be able to go out of their mic pre, to a compressor or eq, to the input of their audio interface. First things first!

[vicenzajay]

Even though I use a lot of outboard gear and have been recording/running live sound/making music for some time, I would like some knowledgeable advice about how to, for example, best route a nicely mixed song through an outboard compressor (of the LA-2A type) and then back into the box. Or perhaps run that main mix through one's favorite valve preamp to give it some overall character? Often without advice, the result is a mish mash of added noise vice the simple signal processing one is trying to achieve (happens a lot with "reamping", for example, if the person does not take the original noise floor into consideration).

Or - everything's nicely run through the appropriate mics, preamps, inline processors, etc., but suppose someone wants to take their "in the box" drum buss and compress that separately out of the box. That's the unintuitive stuff that tricks up even some of those that have logged plenty of time twisting knobs on physical gear.

However, for the OP I land squarely on the side of - "try it...don't give up on hardware because you've always used plug-ins". Ask specific questions here (or search on that particular subject), and then try using hardware instead of software...I think you'll like it (although your wallet won't thank you).

Jay

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by Benyah

If you have grown with plugins then stay with them. Good outboard costs a hell of a lot more than good plugins so get yourself a good mic, a good preamp, an interface with good converters and do the rest in you DAW, it'll save time, money and trouble.

While that's true for the present, you might wind up kicking yourself down the road. When Mac switched over to OSX and ProTools updated, I had to make a choice to not upgrade or chuck all the RTAS plug-ins I had purchased because they weren't going to work in OSX. If I'd had hardware, I wouldn't have had to make that decision.

[Ironklad Audio]

I would like some knowledgeable advice about how to, for example, best route a nicely mixed song through an outboard compressor (of the LA-2A type) and then back into the box. Or perhaps run that main mix through one's favorite valve preamp to give it some overall character?

you send the track(s) you want to process to the piece of outboard gear via an aux or line out, or whatever output your interface has(or the mixer, if mixing OTB)...then you run the outboard's output into a mixer/interface input(s), and follow that by tweaking your outboard box until it's giving you what you want. now you have a couple of options - you can either render the track(or record to 2-track OTB) with the desired effect applied, or you can record the processed track onto a new track, and either replace or blend the original track. recording it onto a new track also allows you so time-align the processed track to the original in case your system has latency problems from making the signal loop.

[Daisy]

I'm sensing a hijack.

Every system is going to be a little different.

But the easiest way is to just think of the bigger picture, and visualize the signal flow.

Every piece of gear has outputs and inputs. To get the mix out of your computer, and in to something else (i.e. an outboard compressor) ... you just go from the outputs of your audio interface, to the inputs of the compressor.

From there, you want to go back out of the compressor (from it's outputs) ... back to a set of inputs on your audio interface -- which you will have armed to record on whatever recording software you're using.

That's the over-simplified explanation; the devil is in the details, but you should be able to sort all that stuff out through experimentation, and by better understanding your software and/or audio interface. In time, you can start getting more fancy with things. But for now, I'd just stick to the raw basics.

[jndietz]

So pretty much, the chain would look something like this?

Interface -> (insert your favorite line of outboard gear here) -> PC?

So is the waveform directly modified by the outboard gear?

[xstatic]

The point I was thrying to make is that a person that does not really understand basic routing principles quite likely does not understand just how their plugins and software actually works as well. I don't think it is completely unrealistic to think that someone that does not understand how basic routing works may also not understand things like how or why things like attack or release works on their software compressors and things like that. By finding resources for overall signal flow and basic techniques one might also start to learn how different reverb parameters affect things, how to use attck and release on a compressor to change the timbre of sounds rather than just reducing dynamics and things like that. This is why I suggested researching some of this instead of not worrying about it. To me its more than just learning how to run things, but about why in some situations things are done the way they are. I figure that getting a more complete understanding of why things happen or are done opens up a lot of tools that the end user may not have understood. Things lilke why some things work the way they do on an aux send as opposed to an insert. I guess I have just seen a lot of people out there inserting reverbs because they don't understand the aux bus principles, or not understanding how the mix blend settings on a reverb affect the way it is used and things like that. I am a beleiver in learning as much as you can. Not because good work can't be done without that knowledge, but more because having that knowledge might make your work easier, faster, more efficient, and open up a lot of options.

[thebigcheese]

Well, as it just so happens, my professor gave us a signal flow chart in PDF form . Hopefully this will help some. He's always talking about how important signal flow is, which makes it sort of annoying that my professor before this didn't ever tell us anything about that. I need to know how things work to understand them.

[Daisy]

Originally Posted by jndietz

So is the waveform directly modified by the outboard gear?

No, not directly. The sound is modified. Which ultimately will change the waveform, once it's captured again on your system.

You're basically just playing the music, running it through a compressor, and then re-recording the processed (in this case compressed) audio. Your computer / interface is "playing" the music from it's output. But instead of sending it to your speakers, you're sending it to the compressor. The compressor is compressing it. Then you're just re-recording that output on your system as a completely new (stereo) track. Same as if you were recording a new vocal track, only you're recording the output of the compressor instead of your voice.

Does that make sense? You might want to take this to the Newbie forum, by the way. There's a lot of basics here that you have seemingly decided to skip!

.

[NL5]

Damn double post!

[NL5]

Originally Posted by thebigcheese

Well, as it just so happens, my professor gave us a signal flow chart in PDF form . Hopefully this will help some. He's always talking about how important signal flow is, which makes it sort of annoying that my professor before this didn't ever tell us anything about that. I need to know how things work to understand them.

Why do you even need that, it should be completely intuitive......

Originally Posted by jndietz

So pretty much, the chain would look something like this?

Interface -> (insert your favorite line of outboard gear here) -> PC?

So is the waveform directly modified by the outboard gear?

You got it!

Originally Posted by wreckd504

What tricks is that NL5?

Listen to "Mother" by Pink Floyd - The breath in the beginning in particular. Think about how that was accomplished. It's sorda what I was talking about......

[thebigcheese]

Originally Posted by NL5

Why do you even need that, it should be completely intuitive......

You'd think so, but you've probably never seen our studio...