Hardy, ADesigns, Demeter, Wunder, Phoenix Audio - What don't you like?

[JTC111]

First, let me say thanks to everyone that's been providing me with lots of useful information. There are plenty of bad choices made when purchasing gear but because of the folks here, I feel like I'm going into this with as much knowledge as I possibly can short of buying and testing a few dozen pres.

I've narrowed my list of possible pre amp purchases down to these five. I already know why any of them would be liked, so please don't tell me why you like any of them. Rather than that, I'd really like to hear why you dislike any of the pres on the list. Don't hold back. Swing them hammers!

Here's my list:
John Hardy M2
A Designs MP-2A
Demeter VTMP-2C
Wunder Audio PAFOUR
Phoenix Audio DRS-2

Thanks in advance.
Jim

[SonicAlbert]

This is going to be a pretty short thread.

My only complaint would be "I dislike that they don't cost less".

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by SonicAlbert

This is going to be a pretty short thread.

My only complaint would be "I dislike that they don't cost less".

Yeah, you and me both. But I have no doubt one of these pres will inspire me to do great things... just gotta figure out which one.

And you're probably right about it being a short thread. But there must be some people out there who have had one of these and didn't like it for some reason. It may not even be a sound issue. I've found in the past, knowing the cons have always helped me make better decisions about anything.

[pipelineaudio]

a-designs stuff needs and output attenuator to really gain any "toob" effects, early models has the DI in a stupid place

all this stuff is good

None of it will spell the difference between making a hit and dropping a poo

[Somnium7]

Originally Posted by SonicAlbert

This is going to be a pretty short thread.

My only complaint would be "I dislike that they don't cost less".

LOL, now that is a hoot!

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

a-designs stuff needs and output attenuator to really gain any "toob" effects, early models has the DI in a stupid place

all this stuff is good

None of it will spell the difference between making a hit and dropping a poo

Now that's the kind of stuff I want to hear. The little nagging annoying details that must exist for some people on some level with any one of these units.

I've dropped too many poos in my studio with gear selection over the years. Hanging out here is gonna change that.

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

a-designs stuff needs and output attenuator to really gain any "toob" effects, early models has the DI in a stupid place

I'm going to have to confess my ignorance on this. Can you explain what you mean by an output attenuator?

[Big Kenny]

Gain ....................


,

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by Big Kenny

Gain ....................

I've noticed that some pres have just a level/gain knob and some have both a level/gain and an output level knob. For example, the Wunder PAFOUR has just one knob, the Mic line input adjustment, but the Great River MP-2NV has two knobs, one a gain knob and the other an output knob.

Are you saying that on any pre that has only one knob, I'd need some additional gear acting as an attenuator? Or is there something about the A-Designs pre that makes it require it while others don't?

[MOFO Pro]

Originally Posted by JTC111

...and the other an output knob.

Essentially a variable attenuator...

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by MOFO Pro

Essentially a variable attenuator...

so does that mean I need to have some piece of gear that does that if i get a pre without a variable attenuator?

[xstatic]

Having a gain and an attenuator knob allows you to drive the input at different levels and still control your putput the way you need. This allows you to get different sounds out of the preamp by pushing it more or less but still maintaining a proper output level. Some preamps however are designed to be very uniform across the various drive levels so an output attenuator is not necessary.

[pohaku]

IME, the majority of preamps only have a single gain control. If you feel the need to have an attenuator, there are simple high quality passive devices out there like the NHT PVC and the A-Designs ATTY.

[Big Kenny]

My Phoenix has both, think of it as your volume and master on a guitar amp. (Not that thats what it is) It can give you some interesting overdriven sounds without a lot of volume attached ti it.

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by pohaku

IME, the majority of preamps only have a single gain control. If you feel the need to have an attenuator, there are simple high quality passive devices out there like the NHT PVC and the A-Designs ATTY.

But it's not something I have to have, right? So if it's an optional thing, what's the benefit to adding an attenuator into the sound chain?

[pohaku]

Originally Posted by JTC111

But it's not something I have to have, right? So if it's an optional thing, what's the benefit to adding an attenuator into the sound chain?

Only useful if you think there is some sonic benefit to driving the gain and attenuating the output of your particular preamp which doesn't have an attenuation control.

[xstatic]

For me, I would almost always want the two stage control, but then I do mostly rock and typically and after the thicker sound. Having two stages on most preamps allows you to drive the input harder which often times changes the way the preamp responds. If you truly want the cleanest signal path, than using one stage at unity is almost always the way to go.

[pipelineaudio]

if you are after "tooooooooooob" then you need a master volume, or its pretty much useless

if you are planning to drive your mic pre in its linear range, and the output at that range is compatible with your recording device, then an attenuator isnt necessary

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

if you are after "tooooooooooob" then you need a master volume, or its pretty much useless

if you are planning to drive your mic pre in its linear range, and the output at that range is compatible with your recording device, then an attenuator isnt necessary

I'm not sure I know what you mean by "tooooooob." I'm not looking to create any kind of distortion or overdrive effect, if that's what you mean. I'm just looking to get really good acoustic guitar tracks... nothing too far from a warm, natural sound, clarity on the low end and catching the nice natural harmonics that happen on the high side. I can live with or without a bit of coloration but I don't think I'm looking for anything that I'd call "tooooooob."

[xstatic]

It does not have to be a tube unit to take advantages of different stages in the preamp. The Great River for example... It just adds a little flexibility to the range of what you can do with many of the preamps by having an output attenuator.

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by xstatic

It does not have to be a tube unit to take advantages of different stages in the preamp. The Great River for example... It just adds a little flexibility to the range of what you can do with many of the preamps by having an output attenuator.

True, but then there are many quality preamps that don't have an output attenuator: John Hardy, the Pacifica, API 512, Wunder PAFour, etc.

I'm making a chart to try to keep track of all the information on each pre I'm considering so I can see that good and the bad all in once place. Going on the presumption that I like the sound of all of these units, here's what I'm coming up with so far, and I think they're in the order of preference; although the Hardy and Demeter are probably even in my head. The MP-2A gets to the top because of the 4 tone options. I thought that might come in handy considering I won't be buying a second dual-pre any time soon.

ADesigns MP-2A
Pros - tubes, noise -128, 4 tone options,
Cons - VU meter, no output attenuator

John Hardy M2
Pros - price ($1800), noise -129, mic input 20 ohm button, 20-light LED meter
Cons - no output attenuator

Demeter VTMP-2C
Pros - tubes, noise -125, output attenuator, 10-light LED meter
Cons -

Wunder PAFour
Pros - 4 inputs,
Cons - no output attenuator, 2-light LED meter
*I can't find specs for this unit online so I wrote to Wunder yesterday requesting them.

Phoenix Audio DRS-2
Pros - output attenuator, 70db gain, XLR inputs on front panel
Cons -noise -90, two-light LED meter

[kojdogg]

have you considered contacting a dealer like mercenary, front end, atlas, high profile, etc. that will let you try one or several pres out for free as long as you put a credit card down as security (obviously you won't want to practice place kicking with them or anything like that)? specs don't tell the whole story.

[bigtoe]

"John Hardy M2
Pros - price ($1800), noise -129, mic input 20 ohm button, 20-light LED meter
Cons - no output attenuator"

actually your 20 ohm button can be a pad, instead of the 20 ohm button.

i noted in another thread about you being concerned about noise...the hardy is dead quiet even with max gain.

if you don't have something clean, like the hardy - i'd go for it or something like it. you can always add color...you cannot take it away as easy.

not much bad to say about it tho...

have fun shoppin'...at the level you're going for it sounds like you won't go wrong whatever you pick so just have fun spending...

Mike

[xstatic]

There definately are a lot of preamps out there without output attenuators. However, there are also a lot that do have them. Most of your "colored" sounding preamps have them. This way you can, at least to some extent, control how much of that color or character you are after. It's really a matter of choice and preference. Personally, I like having the output attenuator because it increases the options and capabilities of the equipment I have. That being said, I always would not write off a preamp if it didn't have an output attenuator. Each different pre has its own vibe and is designed in certian ways for certain intentions. I have also heard many people complain that adding something like the Atty changed the sound in a way they weren't expecting. Like I said though, many of us view the same things in different ways. Personally, I prefer that the attenuator is built right ion to the unit. This means it functions at a certain point in the signal chain, which is often before certain transformers and other circuits. An aftermarket attenuator only affects the signal after all the integrated electronics. This can be a good thing, or a bad thing, depends on what your preferences are. Also, with a built in attenuator you usually get a wider more usable range as well as still having the choice to leave it in its nulled position should you want to use an aftermarket attenuator.

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by bigtoe

"John Hardy M2
Pros - price ($1800), noise -129, mic input 20 ohm button, 20-light LED meter
Cons - no output attenuator"

actually your 20 ohm button can be a pad, instead of the 20 ohm button.
Mike

Yeah, but I'd most likely opt for the 20 ohm option. My TwinTrak (don't laugh... the new pre will replace that one) has a variable impedence/ohm knob and it makes a big difference on some mics. So it would be nice to have that lower ohm option.