good delay plugin for drums?

[skiz]

just wonderin what delays you guys would recommend for kick and snare? and what settings you use

[RAMI]

I have never, and I don't know anyone who ever has, used a delay on drums.

OK, I'm exxagerating, it's sometimes used on Reggae "dub" type stuff. But why would you ever want to put a delay on any drum??? Unless you meant "reverb", in which case, that's used almost all the time.

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by RAMI

I have never, and I don't know anyone who ever has, used a delay on drums.

OK, I'm exxagerating, it's sometimes used on Reggae "dub" type stuff. But why would you ever want to put a delay on any drum??? Unless you meant "reverb", in which case, that's used almost all the time.

Lol. I agree again. Delay on drums would just be a fucking mess.

[skiz]

not a lot of delay,

ive found using a small bit of delay of delay time like 5ms with really fast decay helps to fatten up my snare but the standard delay with cubase doesnt sound that great

[Greg_L]

That would be like using a gated reverb. How very Phil Collins of you.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by skiz

not a lot of delay,

ive found using a small bit of delay of delay time like 5ms with really fast decay helps to fatten up my snare but the standard delay with cubase doesnt sound that great

But instead of all these "poor man" tricks that don't really work anyway, like doubling up kiks and adding echo to a snare and whatever else....You're missing the whole point, which is to get your thick, full sounds at the source. If you NEED to do all these weird things just to get something to "cut through", your problems are alot greater than just trying to figure what kind of echo to use on a snare.

[Greg_L]

Yup. You're putting the cart ahead of the horse.

[skiz]

yes, because i have a crappy snare and no money for better equipment unfortunately

as for the kick im using a beta52 on it and placing it inside about 3 inches away from the beaters and well i cant get it to cut through either. im new to home recording. im just messing around to see what things do.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by skiz

yes, because i have a crappy snare and no money for better equipment unfortunately

as for the kick im using a beta52 on it and placing it inside about 3 inches away from the beaters and well i cant get it to cut through either. im new to home recording. im just messing around to see what things do.

Yeah, that's cool. Don't get me wrong, you're doing the right thing by experimenting. I'm just trying to help you with things I've been through. We all go through a period of trying to find short cuts....Sooner or later, we all realize that the SOURCE is where you have to make things sound good. That means, good tuning, good playing, good mic placement , a good room, etc....

[Greg_L]

What is a "crappy snare"? How crappy is it? I had a junky old Rogers snare that was pretty damn crappy, and I still got it to tune and record decently. Dare I say it even sounded good at times. You just have to play with things. Experiement with mic'ing and tracking.

I'm thinking your drums are tuned poorly or your tracking/mixing habits are way off base. Going back to your kick problem, like I said, turn the other stuff down. It's okay to turn things down. It's a mix. You don't need every track peaking. You're gonna have to turn down the main bus anyway, so you might as well do it in the mix. You're chasing volume that will miraculously materialize if you'd just turn the other shit down some.

[skiz]

i can understand the good room helping with snare and everything

but how does the room really help with the kick seeing as the mic is inside the drum? also how much mic technique can there be with a kick, as the mic is just inside, 3 inches away from the batter head pointing straight at the beaters.

i think my kick sounds decent live but i think it might be tuned a little high on the batter head. also with the whole turning everything else down, then the volume of the overall track will drop a bit and sound weak if i have to start turning everything down to get the kick to come through.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by skiz

i can understand the good room helping with snare and everything

but how does the room really help with the kick seeing as the mic is inside the drum? also how much mic technique can there be with a kick, as the mic is just inside, 3 inches away from the batter head pointing straight at the beaters.

Well, you should be getting the majority of your drum sound from the overheads, not the individual mics. So the room is very important. But you're right to a point about the kik not being affected as much by the room. Still though, you'd be surprised how much moving a mic one inch can do. Even if your kik still needs a little prcessing after, it should still sound decent recorded flat.

As far as Eq'ing, instead of boosting 90-120Hz, try cutting 225-450kz first. Often cutting is much more natural sounding than boosting.

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by skiz

i can understand the good room helping with snare and everything

but how does the room really help with the kick seeing as the mic is inside the drum? also how much mic technique can there be with a kick, as the mic is just inside, 3 inches away from the batter head pointing straight at the beaters.

Move the mic and see what a difference it makes. Try different things. You may need to tune the drum differently. You have to try stuff.

also with the whole turning everything else down, then the volume of the overall track will drop a bit and sound weak if i have to start turning everything down to get the kick to come through.

Dude, turn up your monitors. Whatever "volume" you lose by bringing the other stuff down so you can hear the kick can be regained by turning your monitors up. If your other tracks are drowning out the kick, bring them down to it. Don't keep turning the kick up and up and up. You can get the overall loudness back later once the actual mix is good.

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by RAMI

As far as Eq'ing, instead of boosting 90-12-Hz, try cutting 225-400kz first. Often cutting is much more natural sounding than boosting.

I couldn't agree more.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by Greg_L

Move the mic and see what a difference it makes. Try different things. You may need to tune the drum differently. You have to try stuff.


Dude, turn up your monitors. Whatever "volume" you lose by bringing the other stuff down so you can hear the kick can be regained by turning your monitors up. If your other tracks are drowning out the kick, bring them down to it. Don't keep turning the kick up and up and up. You can get the overall loudness back later once the actual mix is good.

I couldn't agree more.

[Greg_L]

Copycat!

[skiz]

ok cool, how do i get that "loudness" back once the mix is good?

normalization and compression of the overall track or what would you guys do?

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by skiz

ok cool, how do i get that "loudness" back once the mix is good?

normalization and compression of the overall track or what would you guys do?

Well, it's a longer answer than just this, but basically: Compress it or limit it with a good compressor or limiter.

Don't worry about getting the MIX as loud as possible. Worry about getting it to sound good.

After that, we're opening a whole different can of worms with how you get the volume up, or even IF we should get the volume up...

...With both extremes of the argument chiming in; From "Smash it to death with a limiter"...to..."Don't touch it if it sounds good, people can turn up their receivers". I imagine the right answer is somewhere in between depending on the style of music, what you're intending to do with the CD, personal taste, and a bunch of other factors.

[Greg_L]

Yeah. Don't sweat getting it as loud as commercial CD's. Just get it to sound good on it's own. Work on getting a good mix before you go worrying about loudness.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by Greg_L

Yeah. Don't sweat getting it as loud as commercial CD's. Just get it to sound good on it's own. Work on getting a good mix before you go worrying about loudness.

Copycat!

[Greg_L]

Double copycat!

[skiz]

thanks a lot guys, ill give it a bang, mayb when i have a rough mix i can post it up and you could give me some advice from there?

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by skiz

thanks a lot guys, ill give it a bang, mayb when i have a rough mix i can post it up and you could give me some advice from there?

Any time, man. I'm no expert, but I'll help all I can.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by Greg_L

Double copycat!

D'OH!!!!!!!!!!!

[MadAudio]

Stewart Copeland used to do some fun stuff with delay. Check the Police track "I Burn for You" and you'll hear delayed drum kit on the last parts. I once recorded a song using an SR-16, and I ran everything but the cymbals through a delay and got some cool rhythms happening.

Never say never. Break the rules.