doubling up the kick?

[skiz]

hey guys

always struggle with my kick, getting it loud enough and cutting thru the mix

a friend of mine suggested i double up the kick (as in copy paste the kick track into a second track that will run simultaneously)

he said in the one track you can boost the lows and cut highs and in the second you can cut the lows and mids and get more attack in the 1k region. he said the doubling up will get the kick sounding louder too

just wondering if this is a valid method or a bad idea?

[RAMI]

Seems to me that doubling up the kik is exactly the same as simply making it louder. What I mean is, there's no difference between that and simply turning it up.

[skiz]

i duno, ive just tried it and it seems to make a huge difference

especially eqing the tracks differently to get lows on the one and the 1 - 1.5k attack region on the other

havnt been able to get it loud like this without it clipping till now

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by skiz

i duno, ive just tried it and it seems to make a huge difference

especially eqing the tracks differently to get lows on the one and the 1 - 1.5k attack region on the other

havnt been able to get it loud like this without it clipping till now

I can't argue with you if you say it works for you.

But, if I just look at it on a logical level, I can't see how this would be any different than turning it up and boosting those frequencies you're talking about.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd like someone to explain to me how it could be any different. The way I see it, doubling it up is simply giving us more of the same signal (=turning it up).
And I can't see how boosting of the high's on one and the low's on the other is any different than simply boosting them on one track.

I think it's something that SEEMS to make a huge difference simply because you doubled the volume of the track by copying it to another track.

But I'm might be 100% wrong.

[Greg_L]

I think Rami is right. Doubling the kick is just the same as making it louder unless you are adding additional processing to the copied track. You perceive that it's better because it is louder. You can achieve the same result with your one kick track by careful EQ'ing and probably turning the other tracks down. If you tracked everything correctly and you still can't hear your kick, then you probably have other tracks fighting with it for space.

[msmales555]

Originally Posted by RAMI

I can't argue with you if you say it works for you.

But, if I just look at it on a logical level, I can't see how this would be any different than turning it up and boosting those frequencies you're talking about.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd like someone to explain to me how it could be any different. The way I see it, doubling it up is simply giving us more of the same signal (=turning it up).
And I can't see how boosting of the high's on one and the low's on the other is any different than simply boosting them on one track.

I think it's something that SEEMS to make a huge difference simply because you doubled the volume of the track by copying it to another track.

But I'm might be 100% wrong.

I think you are right as far as doubling the kick being the same as if you just turned it up in the mix. I think where there is a difference is that there is a limit to how much you can turn something up before your fader is maxed out and that tracks starts to clip or you can't turn it up anymore. creating a second track would allow you to add more volume without turning it up to the point that a track might clip or that you would run out of headroom.

Personally, I never really have much of a problem getting my kick to show up in the mix. I usually put a D112 about 3 inches form the batter head on the inside of the drum (18x22 tama birch drum) and between compression and reverb it gets big enough. As far as doubling it is concerned, I've actually put just a hint of delay on my kick before and that can make it jump out of the mix big time....however, that usually turns out to be way too much kick and I ended up taking it off or turning the delay down substantially.

[skiz]

heres what ive found, so it seems

if you have just 1 track and you boosting the lows and the midhighs, well the lows make the track clip more than the highs so i cant seem to boost the volume much as its clipping, so putting it into 2 tracks and cutting the lows and playing with the midhighs on the other lets me get the mid highs to come out more without it clipping and i can boost the volume and now im getting loads more attack which is def helping with the double kick parts

thats about all i can think of but it has helped

[skiz]

msmales, what delay are you using?

what settings do you use? never gotten a nice delay from the crap plugins that come with cubase

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by skiz

heres what ive found, so it seems

if you have just 1 track and you boosting the lows and the midhighs, well the lows make the track clip more than the highs so i cant seem to boost the volume much as its clipping, so putting it into 2 tracks and cutting the lows and playing with the midhighs on the other lets me get the mid highs to come out more without it clipping and i can boost the volume and now im getting loads more attack which is def helping with the double kick parts

thats about all i can think of but it has helped

Why are you boosting the lows so much? You're right about eating up all your headroom. It's a kick drum. It should be fat and low on its own. Maybe you need to play with your mic choice, mic placement, tune the drum properly, or all of the above.

[skiz]

im not boosting an insane amount, about 1.5 to 2 db boost in the 90 - 125 range

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by skiz

im not boosting an insane amount, about 1.5 to 2 db boost in the 90 - 125 range

Then I'm thinking you really probably only need to turn everything else down some. I mean, if you like doubling the kick, then by all means go for it. It's not necessary though. You can achieve what you want with one track. It just sounds like everything else is too loud. That's why it's called "mixing".

[Yonce N Mild]

Originally Posted by msmales555

I think where there is a difference is that there is a limit to how much you can turn something up before your fader is maxed out and that tracks starts to clip or you can't turn it up anymore. creating a second track would allow you to add more volume without turning it up to the point that a track might clip or that you would run out of headroom.

That is exactly it. In theory it is just like adding volume but in practice it can be way more effective. If you don't believe me try it and take a listen, there is no way you get the same results just by turning up the kick and bringing the rest of the tracks down. Sure that would make the kick stand out but it wouldn't sound the same. Doubling up the kick makes it hit HARD especially if you eq both tracks a little differently. This is a pretty common technique in a lot of electronic generas.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by Yonce N Mild

Doubling up the kick makes it hit HARD

I still say it's the illusion of it hitting harder because it's louder. Just think, you're DOUBLING it up. Take your fader and double the output and I'm sure it will be the exact same thing.

If you're at a point where you have to turn your kik drum up so loud that there's no room on your fader, you need to go back and learn some basics about mixing...Because there is abslolutely NO GOOD REASON to ever be at that point.

[VSpaceBoy]

I think the only doubling of a kick that's common is the New York style compressing of the kick OR a send to a channel with bass. Two copies of a kick for eq of volume is just a waster of CPU.

[Greg_L]

Yall are confusing volume with sound quality. People naturally tend to think louder sounds better. Duplicating a kick track and EQ'ing it differently isn't really any different than having one track with the same EQ's applied. It's just louder. What you could do is to duplicate the kick, and then add some kind of compression to accentuate a certain characteristic you may want, and mix it in.

[Yonce N Mild]

don't knock it until you've tried it. Do it listen to it use your ears and then tell me you get the same effect from a single track.

Should you do it all the time? Of course not but sometimes it sounds awesome. Some songs just beg for it. You can get some pretty nasty sounding kicks by layering different kicks on top of each other. Don't tell me you guys have never heard of layering an 808 style kick over an acoustic kick to get some boom?

I would never do this on an acoustic kit for a standard rock or country type sound but it is very useful for metal/industrial/techno in certain situations.

Originally Posted by Greg_L

What you could do is to duplicate the kick, and then add some kind of compression to accentuate a certain characteristic you may want, and mix it in.

That's what I'm talking about. I usually use eq on the individual tracks the bounce them to a single track and compress that track. I don't do my final mix with 2 separate kick tracks.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by Yonce N Mild

don't knock it until you've tried it. Do it listen to it use your ears and then tell me you get the same effect from a single track.

Um...I'm right beside my equipment here. I tried it before my last post just to make sure. It's the exact same thing.

Copy your kik track, now you have 2 kik tracks. Play them both at the same volume.

Now, mute one and turn the other one up TWICE AS LOUD.

Exact same result.

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by Yonce N Mild

don't knock it until you've tried it. Do it listen to it use your ears and then tell me you get the same effect from a single track.

Should you do it all the time? Of course not but sometimes it sounds awesome. Some songs just beg for it. You can get some pretty nasty sounding kicks by layering different kicks on top of each other. Don't tell me you guys have never heard of layering an 808 style kick over an acoustic kick to get some boom?

I would never do this on an acoustic kit for a standard rock or country type sound but it is very useful for metal/industrial/techno in certain situations.

.

It's not the same. You're talking about mixing 2 totally different sounds as one. That's a whole different animal. We're talking about getting a good, usable kick sound from one mic, one kick drum, one track. It aint hard. If the original poster can't get a good kick sound on it's own, then I'm not gonna recommend getting all fancy with techno techniques.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by Yonce N Mild

You can get some pretty nasty sounding kicks by layering different kicks on top of each other. Don't tell me you guys have never heard of layering an 808 style kick over an acoustic kick to get some boom?

That's a completely different thing. We're talking about doubling the exact same track, not layering 2 different bass drums.

EDIT> Holy shit. Greg, we posted the same thing at the same time. Well, we started posting at the same time, probably, but it took me 6 minutes to post this. Weird.

[TeyshaBlue]

Originally Posted by RAMI

That's a completely different thing. We're talking about doubling the exact same track, not layering 2 different bass drums.

EDIT> Holy shit. Greg, we posted the same thing at the same time. Well, we started posting at the same time, probably, but it took me 6 minutes to post this. Weird.

You guys look alike too.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by TeyshaBlue

You guys look alike too.

I looked like me first.

[MadAudio]

Originally Posted by RAMI

EDIT> Holy shit. Greg, we posted the same thing at the same time. Well, we started posting at the same time, probably, but it took me 6 minutes to post this. Weird.

So if you copy the same post and double it, does that make it twice as right?

[TeyshaBlue]

Originally Posted by MadAudio

So if you copy the same post and double it, does that make it twice as right?

Holy crap! I'll be a genius by the end of the day.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by MadAudio

So if you copy the same post and double it, does that make it twice as right?

oooooooHHHHH..Now you're getting all esotoric on our asses.

[Yonce N Mild]

Originally Posted by RAMI

Um...I'm right beside my equipment here. I tried it before my last post just to make sure. It's the exact same thing.

Copy your kik track, now you have 2 kik tracks. Play them both at the same volume.

Now, mute one and turn the other one up TWICE AS LOUD.

Exact same result.

You forgot the EQ.

Originally Posted by RAMI

That's a completely different thing. We're talking about doubling the exact same track, not layering 2 different bass drums.

Ah but if you eq them both differently then they begin to sound like 2 different kick drums. You can radically change the sound of a kick with eq can you not? For me it's a sound design thing more than a mixing thing though. Not that sound design isn't important to the final mix.

Originally Posted by Greg_L

It's a kick drum. It should be fat and low on its own. Maybe you need to play with your mic choice, mic placement, tune the drum properly, or all of the above.

That would be awesome........ if I had a choice in mics a decent live room and more importantly an acoustic drum set. This is HOME recording after all. The most difficult thing to record properly in a home studio(IMHO) is drums because of the space requirements and the amount of noise. All my drums are either electronic, sample based or recorded somewhere else. Sometimes you need to get a little creative to work around the constraints of your setup.

I'm not sure what the original posters situation is but it may be similar. I'm also not sure what type of music he is making. This technique may be totally appropriate for his situation.