How to isolate the tracks of an orchestra from a drumkit playing with it?

[Vagodeoz]

I have to mike a 90 piece orchestra, and my biggest problem is that I will be playing the drums on the same stage, at no more than 15 foot away from the orchestra. And we play symphonic black metal, so drums aren't exactly quiet...
So anyway, I have seen in some similar concerts that they use some kind of acrylic panels. Can anyone give me a word of advice about it?
And within the orchestra my biggest problem will be the violins, since there are 28 violines and they are the most quiet and most in front instruments of the orchestra, also pretty damm close to the drums.
I don't have a lot of mikes either, so what I would have available for strings would be probably a matched pair of Rode NT5s and an un-matched pair of Behringer B2-Pro. I was thinking about using the B2's as main stereo image of the strings, doing an A-B (spaced) stereo take. Both about 2 mts above the orchestra guys, and in figure-8 aiming the drum kit at 90 degrees.
And using the Rode as reinforcements for the first rows of the strings, since they are usually the best musicians, so I have a stereo take of the overall string section, plus a semi-close miking pair for reinforcing it.

Advice? How would YOU do it?

Pd: I would use the mikes for both PA and Recording.

[Daisy]

Originally Posted by Vagodeoz

Advice? How would YOU do it?

Pray for a miracle?

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by Vagodeoz

I would use the mikes for both PA and Recording.

The use of the PA implies that this is a live performance for an audience. In that case, I can't see making the audience/performance suffer just to try to get a marginally better recording. I'd make the live performance the primary concern with the limited gear you have and consider the bar set pretty low for the recording. Mic for the PA needs only, and just tap what you can off the FOH for recording and be happy with what you get from that.

As far as the drum isolation you are asking about, try a Google search on "lexan gobo".

G.

[SonicAlbert]

You need to position the instruments in such a way that they aren't conflicting with each other. No matter what it does to the band's normal stage setup.

For example, the drums should *not* be near the violins. Besides the fact that they violins will get drowned out and the drums will severely bleed into the violin mics, do you really want to listen to 28 violinists complain for however long the gig is?

Putting plexi around the drums is probably going to be necessary. But it might be more important to separate the drums from the orchestra than the drums from the audience. Or you might want to put the plexi all the way around the drummer. Or maybe even ask the drummer to tone it down a bit.

I agree with Southside, your primary concern should be to make the concert happen. Also, it seems like you are concerned with mainly the violins and drums. There's the whole rest of the orchestra there that is going to need to be balanced out.

My suggestion would be to use all but two mics on getting the balance right in the house between the band and the orchestra. Then use a stereo pair out in the house to capture the performance. Or, take feeds off the board and mix the elements later.

[DavidK]

Originally Posted by Vagodeoz

So anyway, I have seen in some similar concerts that they use some kind of acrylic panels. Can anyone give me a word of advice about it?

Sure. Buy some acrylic panels.

Yes, in the orchestra we use plastic shields/baffling. We use them in regular concerts too, between the trumpets and whatever is in front of them, usually violas.

For rock shows, the drummer is basically in a plastic room. String players are whiners, they WILL complain about anything and everything. The baffling has to be a 3 panel room with the front open.

As far as miking, dont lose any sleep over it. Having a 90 piece orchestra is mainly a visual effect if its a loud band. 90 people can make some volume but it wont match a high powered pa system. Its gonna be a literal wall of sound, dont expect a lot of definition.

[Vagodeoz]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions!

Yes, my main concern is violins and drums, becouse violins are not very loud, there are many of it, and they are in front of the orchestra (really close to the band). Cellos are also in front and close to the drumkit, but they are louder, and fewer instruments to mike.
All other instruments aren't really a concern, since there are two players per woodwind, and I plan to use at least one mike for every instrument, which leads to one mike per two instruments, which shouldn't have much bleed (at least waaaay less than the violins).
And brass and percussion are pretty loud, and they are in the back (far from the band)
I though if I use (at least) one mike per instrument, I can mix them nicely with the band on the PA, and if I record multitrack, I can mix it for the DVD.

Do you guys really see a problem in using the same mikes for the PA and for the recording? With my limited knowledge in sound, I don't see any... especially if I record each mike in it's own track.
I though "well, I mike and do the PA for the concert, and I also record every mike on it's own, so when I have to mix it, I'll try to get the best sound possible from the PA mikes."
It will surely give me a lot more freedom when mixing the DVD.
Also I don't think a stereo take will sound good enough for a DVD. It might work as a demo, but for a DVD....

[SonicAlbert]

If you have all those mics and plan to record each mic individually, then yes that is the way to go. I'd still put up a stereo pair as a safety.

[Vagodeoz]

Thanks Albert.
But for the main pair, do you mean an audience overall stereo pair? Or an orchestra stereo pair?

[SonicAlbert]

A lot of times in a concert hall you see a stereo pair hanging from the ceiling, or on very tall stands. They are behind the conductor and if hanging are maybe located at the edge of the stage or slightly over the first rows of seats.

Since your concert is different, with the band and all, you might have to think about a different way of doing that. But the basic concept is to locate the stereo pair wherever they get the best balanced mix. You don't want them too far back or it gets washy. Too far forward and you pick up too much of one instrument or another.

I'm just thinking of a stereo pair as a safety, but it is important to have that.

[Cosmic]

Yes to the stereo house pair

You may call this second-hand advice, but I worked video for the Air Force Concert band for several seasons, and they were playing/recording in Constitution Hall here in DC (an old-fashioned band-shell.)
Theirs was a mix of pop and symphony (drum panels and all), and there were plenty of direct boxes and sectional miking.

But they always hung a 269 stereo mic way up as an overall 'big picture' orchestra mic; I suspect more for the video tape feed and the multi-track recording than the PA feed.

As long as you can get two mics and have two tracks, what's to lose by trying.

Best
C.

[isfahani]

Originally Posted by DavidK

String players are whiners, they WILL complain about anything and everything.

Somehow I knew it wasn't just the ones here...