MK-012 pair - only mono in omnidirectional?

[PIANOPICTURES]

Hi. I just got a pair of Octava MK-012A with three different mic heads each one (omni, caridioid, hypercardioid). In their manual I saw a phrase that was strange to me: "omnidirectional head dedicated for using the stereopair in mono mode only". What can it be meant?

[dgatwood]

Originally Posted by PIANOPICTURES

Hi. I just got a pair of Octava MK-012A with three different mic heads each one (omni, caridioid, hypercardioid). In their manual I saw a phrase that was strange to me: "omnidirectional head dedicated for using the stereopair in mono mode only". What can it be meant?

While you can use omni mics for stereo recording (as a spaced pair), most people do stereo in an X/Y configuration, which won't work worth crap using omni capsules because they'll both pick up almost identical sounds. I'd imagine that's what they meant.

[PIANOPICTURES]

I see, thank you!

[Marik]

Originally Posted by dgatwood

While you can use omni mics for stereo recording (as a spaced pair), most people do stereo in an X/Y configuration, which won't work worth crap using omni capsules because they'll both pick up almost identical sounds. I'd imagine that's what they meant.

Omni spaced techniques give a very nice stereo effect, which with Jecklin disk can be quite stanning.
It is very hard to understand what they mean.

Best, M

[psychedelicsoun]

Originally Posted by dgatwood

While you can use omni mics for stereo recording (as a spaced pair), most people do stereo in an X/Y configuration, which won't work worth crap using omni capsules because they'll both pick up almost identical sounds. I'd imagine that's what they meant.

yep. also I've heard omni mics that are close together, like 1ft. or less, will interact in a negative way but this is heresay; I haven't experienced it first hand.

[dgatwood]

Originally Posted by psychedelicsoun

yep. also I've heard omni mics that are close together, like 1ft. or less, will interact in a negative way but this is heresay; I haven't experienced it first hand.

Omni mics sufficiently close together become a monaural signal....

[psychedelicsoun]

Originally Posted by dgatwood

Omni mics sufficiently close together become a monaural signal....

Yes thank you for calling me out. I shouldn't have said anything. Here's an example of what I was referring to: say you have one omni mic on acoustic guitar and one on vocals at the same time. If each was a foot away from their source, there would be phase effects because each mic would be picking up both at different distances - the guitar mic would be 1 foot from the guitar and 1.3ft or so from the vocals and vice versa with the vocal mic. The mics would have phase interactions for this reason and could not be adjusted because they both contain both sources, vocals and delayed acg guitar (relative to the other mic) in one and acg guitar and delayed vocals in the other. It's similar to how the tone changes when you have a close mic on an ele gtr amp and you are moving around a room mic with headphones (before they are aligned for phase after the fact in your DAW of choice). Now i prefer just one mic on acoustic guitar and vocals, but any stereo miking configuration would not induce the phase/tone effects. Anyway I don't know why someone would use omni mics in XY...

[Marik]

Originally Posted by psychedelicsoun

say you have one omni mic on acoustic guitar and one on vocals at the same time.

But then it is not a stereo anymore.

[psychedelicsoun]

i was not referring to stereo, I was referring to omni mics 1 ft. apart

I've tried omni's in an X/Y config (before I knew better) and obviously, never got a good recording. In fact, it sounded a lot better with just one mic.

But I do use the omnis in a spaced pair and it works really well. Probably not as much separation as using cardioid mics though...

[Vagodeoz]

The sentence from the original post, could be also referred to mono compatibility issues.
If you mix both tracks from an X/Y pair into a mono track (ie. for radio), you get a nice mono track.
However if you mix both tracks from an Omni spaced par, they won't match very good, since they will have phase issues becouse of the difference of time between both mikes, and you will have a very very nice comb filter

Maybe they just got their words messed up.

[tdukex]

Originally Posted by danny.guitar

I've tried omni's in an X/Y config (before I knew better) and obviously, never got a good recording. In fact, it sounded a lot better with just one mic.

But I do use the omnis in a spaced pair and it works really well. Probably not as much separation as using cardioid mics though...

Try one somewhere between the 12th fret and the neck joint and the other over your right shoulder pointing straight down at the bout (a Harvey technique).

[dgatwood]

Originally Posted by Vagodeoz

The sentence from the original post, could be also referred to mono compatibility issues.
If you mix both tracks from an X/Y pair into a mono track (ie. for radio), you get a nice mono track.
However if you mix both tracks from an Omni spaced par, they won't match very good, since they will have phase issues becouse of the difference of time between both mikes, and you will have a very very nice comb filter

Yeah, mono compatibility, if memory serves, from best to worst is:

Mid-Side (*)
X/Y
ORTF (with or without a jecklin disc or other similar technique)
Spaced pair

Of those techniques, only the last two are reasonably useful with omni mics.

(*) Mid-Side is generally considered perfectly mono compatible because the left and right channels when summed (distortion, noise, and signal loss notwithstanding) generate a signal that is identical to that of a single microphone, the "Mid" channel.

[drumzealot]

Originally Posted by dgatwood

While you can use omni mics for stereo recording (as a spaced pair), most people do stereo in an X/Y configuration, which won't work worth crap using omni capsules because they'll both pick up almost identical sounds. I'd imagine that's what they meant.

\

How does one politely say, "Narf!"?
I’ve tracked using omni’s in XY. I’ve also hired engineers to record various live performances who have done this (with out my asking them to) and in both cases it most definitely produced an amazing and pleasing stereo sound. In fact, one of favorite ways to track a live band (especially jazz combos) is to place 2 omni’s in XY or with the caps about 1 foot apart pointing about 45 degrees outward with the drums set-up right in the middle. The result is soooo nice and not monorial-able-thingy.

[Marik]

Originally Posted by drumzealot

\
In fact, one of favorite ways to track a live band (especially jazz combos) is to place 2 omni’s in XY or with the caps about 1 foot apart pointing about 45 degrees outward with the drums set-up right in the middle.

With all due respect, may I suggest that X/Y is a coincident technique. Taken as much as a foot apart, it is not X/Y anymore.

Best, M

[drumzealot]

Originally Posted by Marik

With all due respect, may I suggest that X/Y is a coincident technique. Taken as much as a foot apart, it is not X/Y anymore.

Best, M

Right. The sentence reads, "...place 2 omni’s in XY or with the caps about 1 foot apart..."
You may recall that School House Rock episode Conjunction Junction. Its a fun way to learn about grammer and stuff.
Semantics. But you get the picture.
But since the topic was broched, I prefer to place them less than a foot apart.

[Marik]

Originally Posted by drumzealot

Right. The sentence reads, "...place 2 omni’s in XY or with the caps about 1 foot apart..."

My bad. Should pay more attention...

In any case, although it is true on lower frequencies the signal is close to mono, on higher frequencies the separation between two close spaced and angled 'true' omnies can be surprisingly good, due to their natural directivity, which of course, is dependant of their physical size.

Best, M

[bubbagump]

Originally Posted by psychedelicsoun

i was not referring to stereo, I was referring to omni mics 1 ft. apart

I believe you are referring to the 3:1 rule.

http://www.crownaudio.com/mic_web/tips/mictip6.htm

[drumzealot]

Totally cool. No problemo, man.
The mics used were older small diaphragm omni AKG's. I forget the model…they were rented. C### or ###C maybe? I do know that AKG no longer makes these mics with omni capsules. I was so pleased with them that I looked into buying a new pair, but they don't exist anymore.
They were placed very close to the band about waist high with the drums right in the middle and the upright bass behind the sax and off to one side. One mic was pointed right at the sax’s bell (about 1-2 feet away) and the other almost right at the guitar amp (about 4 feet away). The low end from the bass drum sounds pretty mono, but the low end from the upright bass has a distinct presence on one side as does the guitar and sax (on opposite sides). If I can I’ll post a small sample tonight. The stereo field is very obvious, especially between the guitar and sax.
In fact, the vibes were about 2 feet behind the mics (in front of the rest of the band), and they were not captured by the XYomni's very well. I had to place 3rd mic over the vibes. AND, only becuase I had another track left (this was tracked to an old 4 track tape machine at 15 ips), I placed one mic over the drum set.