phase cancellation question

[tubbabubba22]

if i close mic kick, snare, high hat, and each tom and then my overhaeds are in an xy pair right above the set am i going to be ok with phase problems? I was also wondering that just because you keep to the 3:1 rule, will you have to manually make all of the compressions lined up and all of the rarefractions lined up on each of the drum tracks? Sorry if this is confusing but say i record all those mics at the same time. even tho they may not be out of phase right away, am i going to have to go into my DAW and manually line up all the positive bursts of air (out of the speaker) and all of the negative bursts so that the cone moves at the same time? If just mic each instrument while applying the 3:1 rule, i shouldnt have to worry about anything else right? I shouldnt have any issues right? Some help would be much appreciated. I am just trying to make sure. Thanks alot guys.

[TexRoadkill]

The 3:1 rule is about micing separate sources like guitar amps and bass amps in the same room. It doesn't really apply to drums.

You will never make the phase relationship of every drum track perfect and if you start moving stuff around in time it usually creates more problems then it solves. Just make the sure the kit sounds great and put the mic's where they sound best.

[TerraMortim]

miced drums could most certainly experience phase cancelation just because technically it is separate sources... however, I do agree, just make it sound good... the paranoia about phase is a little overblown in my opinion. The only thing I'd pay attention to is where you place the room mics vs close mics.. It's not a huge deal, and I don't really recommend getting all scientific about it... just move them around till your ears start to smile.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

What I'd like to know is who is feeding all these newbs all this information *before they even get here* that they need or should be throwing 27 microphones on their drum kit to begin with?

G.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

What I'd like to know is who is feeding all these newbs all this information *before they even get here* that they need or should be throwing 27 microphones on their drum kit to begin with?

G.

I don't think it's anyone feeding directly. We live in a "more is better" world. Can't blame anyone for thinking it applies to micing drums.

It took me a long time to get around to micing my drums a few years ago, just because I couldn't afford all the mics I THOUGHT I needed. Through research, and listening to what other people have done with a minimal set up, I realized that, while it doesn't hurt to have all those tracks at your disposal as long as you don't have a "mute button complex", it's alot easier for me to get a good sound with 4 mics than it would be with 8-21.

[tubbabubba22]

thanks for the help so far. and im not a total newb, but kinda but i dont think 8 mics is to many. but anyways, does anyone else have any more oppinions?

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by tubbabubba22

thanks for the help so far. and im not a total newb, but kinda but i dont think 8 mics is to many. but anyways, does anyone else have any more oppinions?

More like a question first. What did you think of this?
http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=257719

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

What I'd like to know is who is feeding all these newbs all this information *before they even get here* that they need or should be throwing 27 microphones on their drum kit to begin with?

G.

You see all over, read it.. so it's not like it isn't done. Personally, I can relate. Coming into this (particularly in the 70's-80's), most of the drums we heard 'sounded like each was in isolation. Part of that, and inexperience, led to a slow death of the surprise that the kit' might be 'ok in the o/h's, hat in the snare.. life beyond gates..

[PhiloBeddoe]

Remember that a gazillion kickass records were made before the days of the DAW and aligning audio files to one sample. In general you just placed the mics at a location that sounded good and hit record.

You usually don't want obvious stuff like an overhead pair or an inside/outside kick mic pair being opposite polarities. But you have to use your ears for the rest of it. You can just hit the phase reverse buttons in your DAW and see which combination sounds best. Often I'll not look at the screen while doing this so I'm not influenced by visual bias.

I had a big name multiplatinum guy mix some of my songs once and on one of them he mixed the snare top and bottom at opposite polarities, i.e. one waveform was up while the other was down, seemed completely wrong in theory. In this case it sounded much better this way. There is lots at play between overheads, rooms, and close mics so the choice is not always obvious. He didn't sweat the decision for a second, just hit the button and said 'there it is'.

Here's is a link to a video of Bruce Miller dancing around a console and hitting phase reverse buttons until he finds the best combo.

http://bamaudioschool.com/audio_cour...ideo10min.html

[whjr15]

Originally Posted by PhiloBeddoe

.....he mixed the snare top and bottom at opposite polarities, i.e. one waveform was up while the other was down, seemed completely wrong in theory.

Not if you think about it. When the drummer hits the snare, the top head creates a compression, while the bottom a rarefaction. So naturally they will be pretty far out of phase.

[PhiloBeddoe]

Originally Posted by whjr15

Not if you think about it. When the drummer hits the snare, the top head creates a compression, while the bottom a rarefaction. So naturally they will be pretty far out of phase.

Right, and this is why if you follow the textbook mixing methods you'll flip the phase on the bottom mic every time. I'm saying this guy deliberately left them out of phase with each other cuz it sounded better in the context of the whole kit. I probably didn't explain it well.

The overarching point was that you have to experiment and see what sounds best. You want to look for things like good definition between snare and kick and a solid low end.

All the delays and phasing are part of a drum sound. Aligning all the peaks on every track does not guarantee a good drum sound, and you might just mess it up more that way.

All IMHO as always.

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by PhiloBeddoe

... The overarching point was that you have to experiment and see what sounds best. You want to look for things like good definition between snare and kick and a solid low end.

All the delays and phasing are part of a drum sound. Aligning all the peaks on every track does not guarantee a good drum sound, and you might just mess it up more that way.
All IMHO as always.

So very very true! The tones are always a combination of in and out of phase. And what better place to have this fabulous 'eq to play with than drums. (and elect. guitar cab- a close second

[whjr15]

Originally Posted by PhiloBeddoe

Right, and this is why if you follow the textbook mixing methods you'll flip the phase on the bottom mic every time. I'm saying this guy deliberately left them out of phase with each other cuz it sounded better in the context of the whole kit. I probably didn't explain it well.

Ah, I get it now... After reading your previous post again, you explained it fine. It was I who messed up on the whole reading comprehension thing! My bad!

[tubbabubba22]

ok thanks alot guys. but how do i check for example to see if my drums are out of phase in protools? im not using a console so i cant just flip it on the console before it gets to protools, so how do i know once its already recorded? any ideas? but like u guys said, ill try not to worry about it to much. ill just keep it in the back of my head. thanks alot.

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by tubbabubba22

ok thanks alot guys. but how do i check for example to see if my drums are out of phase in protools? im not using a console so i cant just flip it on the console before it gets to protools, so how do i know once its already recorded? any ideas? but like u guys said, ill try not to worry about it to much. ill just keep it in the back of my head. thanks alot.

If I may, there appears to be a certain amount disconnect in your question. In the normal progression of things you'd set your mics, listen and adjust, or record, listen and adjust, so that the inevitable 'out of phasness' (new word?) is something you like.

pause here for effect--- Ok?

Now if you can't flip polarity on the hardware then you can do it in soft'. Very often I'll find that even after I have some really good solid drum sounds after the other instruments are in I'll still take a spin with the polarity switches in 'Cake and find completely new valid options.
The thing to get down/past though, is there are dozens of combos that sound good and some that aren't anywhere near what you'd call the most 'natural' or even most 'in phase' tones that are completely cool behind some bass and guitars or whatever.
The point is if it sounds bad, thin, or inappropriate, there is 'time (distances) and polarity. 'Track sliding if you want to go there.