bass drum - sm58 or akg c2000b

[elly-d]

hey, i am doing a recording session next week. i have five mics available, 3 X sm58s and 2 X AKG C2000Bs. my main concern is recording the drums, i have used the AKGs on the bass drum before with some success, but if i want to use them for overheads then i would have to use a 58 in there. and i'm afraid that it will sound weak.

any ideas or opinions?

the kit is kick, snare, tom, floor tom, and cymbals.

[surfmaster]

Originally Posted by elly-d

hey, i am doing a recording session next week. i have five mics available, 3 X sm58s and 2 X AKG C2000Bs. my main concern is recording the drums, i have used the AKGs on the bass drum before with some success, but if i want to use them for overheads then i would have to use a 58 in there. and i'm afraid that it will sound weak.

any ideas or opinions?

the kit is kick, snare, tom, floor tom, and cymbals.

with the right processing, the 57 will suffice on kick drum.

[whjr15]

I'd definitely wanna use the AKG's as overheads.

[elly-d]

yeah i hope the sm58 will do it. there is always the option of akg in the kick one for overhead and a 58 on the snare? or should i always go for stereo? matter of opinion i guess.

well thanks i will give both a try, i have decent eq on my desk and the producer is bringing TL audio eq so im sure we could get the 58 working on the kick.

cheers.

[Elton Bear]

I was about to suggest that - one overhead, AKG in the kick (obviously not actually IN the kick), 58's on snare and toms...

[Tim Brown]

There is no reason you shouldn't be able to get a decent kick sound out of an Sm58 - I used one on the kicks both live and in home recording for well over 10 years.



Tim

[Spikeh]

I wouldn't recommend using the C1000S's on the kick under any circumstances - they're condenser mics, so you could easily damage them.

The 58 is dynamic, so it's mroe rugged... wouldn't be my personal choice, but I'm sure you can get something decent out of it.

[elly-d]

yeah i know, its a stupid thing to do, but it sounds really quite good and i'm not a hard hitter. i was worried when i first did it but i have used it quite alot with no casualties (yet). i usually don't mic too close to the head and i don't have a resonant head so the air isn't being compressed through a small hole onto it or anything, if that makes the slightest difference i don't know. i'm gonna try the shure first anyway as i would like to try the recorder man set up. i will post a clip soon.

[Rimshot]

Sure you can catch saltwater flat fish with a bamboo fly casting rig, but that's not what that rod and reel were made for. You'd be better off with a stouter saltwater rod and reel.
If you are pressed to the wall and have nothing else then you may have to make due with a small condenser or a vocal dynamic on your kick drum, but it will never be ideal. Besides the SPL's, the tonality range and tolerances are different. You'd actually be better off buying a cheap kick mic, but saving and buying a slightly better quality is a good idea. I own an old AKG D 12 and a Shure and a Cad and a few ATM cheaper kick mics. My absolute favorite is the ATM 25 but a pretty good substitute is the ATM Pro 25. Neither of these mics is very expensive (you can still get the ATM 25 on sale for just over $100 and the Pro 25 can be had for just under $70)
If you are determined to use one of the two mentioned, then the only one I would consider is the SM 58. It won't give you a fat sound, but it will be okay.

[elly-d]

hey i finished the session last week and we ended up using the akg on the kick, it sounds pretty good and it didn't wreck it. the producer said if it sounds good who cares what it was intended for, and i kind of agree. the producer brought a couple of shure condensers and they were really good as overheads, i can't remember their name though. shure ??a ?

[drumzealot]

I just read an interview with Alex Van Halen in this month’s modern drummer. He claims that his bass drums are primarily miced with SM57s and, “Beta 91’s to add some bottom if necessary.”
While it’s true that certain mics have gained a reputation for certain applications: one should feel free to experiment in spite of conventional wisdom. With out experimentation sound engineering would be much different than it is today. It would be much worse. In fact many of the conventions we hold to today are a result of rule breaking.
I am reading Geoff Emerick’s book Here, There, and Everywhere where he describes some the techniques he invented while recording The Beatles, many of which are common practice today. Ironically, he could have been fired on the spot if the Abby Road studio execs had caught him experimenting like he did. It’s ironic because the things he did helped make Abby Road one of world’s most renowned facilities and those recordings some of the most renowned records.
Don’t think in terms of, “this is a vocal mic and this is a bass drum mic.” How boring and uninspired! Rather think in terms of, “this is a device that converts sound waves into electric signals.” That is exactly how Geoff Emerick invented the speaker-mic used to record kick drums, bass cabs and even guitar cabs in most studio today.
So go ahead and use an AKG D112 as a vocal mic, stick an SM58 in your bass drum (I do. Coupled with a speaker-mic it gets an amazing sound), put peanut butter on your dill pickles...it might taste good! Some dorks might poke fun at you...fuck ‘em! In the history of all art forms, people who either lack vision and intelligence, or are too lazy or too scared to break rules rarely contribute anything of value and never cause revolution.

[drumzealot]

One more thing.
Using condensor mics on kick drums is a very common practice. Even close miced. Even for hard hitters. Even placed in front of a vent hole. Just place a taunt pop screen in front of the mic and it should be fine. I've seen numerous engineers place U47 FETs a few inches away from the drum head. No problemo.
I started recording drums with a Beta 52, D112 or Rode NT2. I often found myself EQing the crap out the track using a HF shelf. So I tossed an SM58 in and thought that the attack was as clear and articulate as I wanted without any EQ, but it lacked the low end and sounded a bit thin. When I EQed some low end in it still was off the mark. So I built a speaker-mic and found that the two get on famously! I had finally found one of the sounds I heard in my head but couldn’t make happen before I tried the 58. God bless the SM58, one and all.
BTW, total cost to build the speaker-mic (including new mic cable, DI box and adjustable stand) = $120.

[elly-d]

cool. whats a speaker mic? and how'd you build one? go on i can tell your dying to tell us.

[Tim Brown]

Originally Posted by elly-d

cool. whats a speaker mic? and how'd you build one? go on i can tell your dying to tell us.

Lot's of us use them.

It's a speaker - usually a 6"-10" speaker on a frame that you put in front of a kick drum. You wire an XLR cable to it (positive to positive, negative to negative, and the ground to the frame of the speaker) Then you plug that into a
mic preamp.

It will pick up a ton of low end. You want a speaker that is highly compliant.

So, you add that in under a mic, rather than just eq'ing to add low end.

It's what the Yamaha "Sub-Kick" is.

Yamaha just chose to market it.

It's been around for years and years - I started doing it back in the 80's simply because I didn't have kick mics at first, but I knew a speaker was a mic in reverse -and I had some cheap Radioshack speakers that we wired up and plugged in.


Tim

[elly-d]

cool, i will try that when i come across a speaker that isn't being used. i have used headphones as a mic before but never thought of a speaker. cheers.

[Yonce N Mild]

Originally Posted by Tim Brown

(positive to positive, negative to negative, and the ground to the frame of the speaker)

Wouldn't you wire it backwards to use it as a mic? I'd like to try it but I'm a little confused.

[Tim Brown]

Originally Posted by Yonce N Mild

Wouldn't you wire it backwards to use it as a mic? I'd like to try it but I'm a little confused.

I didn't and I got tons of low end out of it.

In theory, any mic aiming back at the kit should be out of phase. So the kick mic(s), and if you mic a snare from beneath, should have a reversed polarity.




Tim

[Yonce N Mild]

Originally Posted by Tim Brown

I didn't and I got tons of low end out of it.

In theory, any mic aiming back at the kit should be out of phase. So the kick mic(s), and if you mic a snare from beneath, should have a reversed polarity.




Tim

Ah ha! I'm over thinking things again. I'm going to try this as soon as I get a chance. Thanks for the info!

[JWR1]

The 58 would be a better choice for the bass drum. those old Shures will do in a pinch most anywhere. The snare side mic should be out of phase from the top side. Let us know how the session turns out.