Chasing Sync in REAPER 2.020

[pipelineaudio]

Check it out, reaper is chasing sync now!

# preliminary slave spp/clock and mtc/ltc timecode. needs testing.
# preliminary ASIO Positioning Protocol slave synchronization (needs testing as well)

in addition to:

# record button on transport now can reflect record punch mode (transport_record_loop.png, transport_record_item.png)
# play button on transport now can reflect slave sync state (transport_play_sync.png, transport_play_sync_on.png)
# right click on play button now shows slave sync configuration, (alt+right click to toggle sync enabled)
# right click on record button now shows record mode options
# actions to open timecode sync panel and toggle sync
# transport context menu now has slave sync/record mode options
# better transport status display (goes multiline, shows slave/bouncing status)
# improved smpte_ltc_decoder synchronization with varying frame/samplerates
# fixed snap to grid at any distance with grid snapping disabled behaving funny
# fixed CPU munch/weird sounds at ends of pitch shifted items with loop source disabled
# fixed crash in Performance Monitor on some machines
# better audio input/output name aliasing (handles duplicate named inputs better, changing indices)
# ReaFIR: fixed Reamote support
# updated (smaller) Spectro build

[billyshuler]

Now I can completely ditch Samplitude!

[pipelineaudio]

What type of device do you normally chase?

[jpmorris]

Oooh... this should be interesting. I'll have to try it when I get back after Christmas. Presumably this is just in the Win32 build for now?

[billyshuler]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

What type of device do you normally chase?

Korg D16. By the way, the D16 is a great multitrack.

[Rokket]

God I feel like a newb... course I don't record to pc, so the term chasing sync is Greek to me....

Pipeline, what does that mean anyway?


I need to brush up on all this. I'm still so ignorant....

[pipelineaudio]

In the old days, devices needed to synchronize their playback and recording, it was an art unto itself. You might have a midi sequencer chasing a tape recorder, or locking a set of adats with tracks that neednt be so hifi with an analog machine containing the vocals and important stuff

Or you started locking machines of the same type together for increasing track count. Also, the automation system on your console used a sync signal so that it would be in the same part of your song timewise as everything else.

There was soooooooooo much that could go wrong and so many variables to get right that it was often a nailbiter.

Today, since we have unlimited tracks and things, its not as important, except as a transfer feature, usually. It is often prohibitively expensive to add chase sync to a hardware device, so adding chase in reaper frees up cash to spend on other things

[Rokket]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

In the old days, devices needed to synchronize their playback and recording, it was an art unto itself. You might have a midi sequencer chasing a tape recorder, or locking a set of adats with tracks that neednt be so hifi with an analog machine containing the vocals and important stuff

Or you started locking machines of the same type together for increasing track count. Also, the automation system on your console used a sync signal so that it would be in the same part of your song timewise as everything else.

There was soooooooooo much that could go wrong and so many variables to get right that it was often a nailbiter.

Today, since we have unlimited tracks and things, its not as important, except as a transfer feature, usually. It is often prohibitively expensive to add chase sync to a hardware device, so adding chase in reaper frees up cash to spend on other things

Cool man, thanks for the information...

[Alden_Sloe]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

In the old days, devices needed to synchronize their playback and recording, it was an art unto itself. ...

Today, since we have unlimited tracks and things, its not as important, except as a transfer feature, usually. It is often prohibitively expensive to add chase sync to a hardware device, so adding chase in reaper frees up cash to spend on other things

This sounds a lot like what we were fighting last night. My son wants to use a keyboard to create a basic musical score and MIDI program/track. His primary software for doing this has been Finale. However, we've had slightly more success so far using Audacity.

Using Finale and a roll-up keyboard he was able to get notes into Finale. This was a success in that even this limited functionality was faster than entering the information using a computer keyboard and mouse. Next step was with Audacity and a cheap Yamaha keyboard (PCR-260). With this set-up he got notes, timing and velocity/loudness. Wah-hoo. However, the timing was very hard to sync. What happens is a lot of the measures end up starting out with 1/16 rests and such.

When the computer was set a Master and an audible beat was played over the computers built in sound system the lag was noticable. I'm guessing this is because of the delay in the program outputing the information to the sound "card" (standard built in motherboard system) and the time for that sound to actually be output to the computer speakers? It doesn't appear to be possible to have the Yamaha "play" a tempo track and output to MIDI at the same time. The documentation says that MIDI out is disabled during "song" playback and it appears this extends to even the built in tempo (a shame if this is true). Even if this could work I'm not sure setting Audacity to "slave" and relying on the Yamaha as "master" will help.

What I suggested was setting up the recorder (Fostex MR16HD). Pluging it into the MIDI "network" (Yamaha->Motu MIDI/USB, Fostex->Motu MIDI/USB, Motu MIDI USB->PC) and using the recorder set to Bar/Measure with audible tempo as the Master. My son's irritated that things don't work exactly as he thinks they should. As an old crumugin that remembers using analog computers (aka slide rules) I find it amazing that any of this works at all

[pipelineaudio]

Are you running a soundcard with low latency ASIO drivers?

[Alden_Sloe]

No, the "sound card" is nothing more than the standard on-board PC audio. We're not trying to actually record "music" but just use the keyboard to capture the score (notes and rythm) via MIDI. If we were trying to get the notes out of a string instrument like a guitar then I can understand why a really audio card would be essential but the keyboard sends the note information as MIDI which isn't really a very demanding application by todays standards. I suppose an audio card that had MIDI in/out would get around any latency issues regarding the USB connection but I would think that shouldn't be a big issue with the speed of a USB 2.0 connection and virtually no other demands on the system (i.e. no USB keyboard, mouse, etc.)

[pipelineaudio]

The program still has to write the audio generated by the virtual instruments to the soundcard's buffer. So itll only be half as bad as if it had to record sound as well, but you still have to deal with that buffer size

You MIGHT be able to improve this with www.asio4all.com Their asio driver may work with your onboard soundcard.

[Alden_Sloe]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

The program still has to write the audio generated by the virtual instruments to the soundcard's buffer. So itll only be half as bad as if it had to record sound as well, but you still have to deal with that buffer size

You MIGHT be able to improve this with www.asio4all.com Their asio driver may work with your onboard soundcard.

Thanks for the tip. It's all about learning right now so even if it doesn't help with this issue it's something I had know idea about and will certainly be important in the future.

I'm still not understanding what virtual instruments are involved. I guess the audible click for timing is a virtual instrument? That's the only sound coming out of the computer and that was only used to try to "sync" the measures in the musical score being recorded with the notes being played. Maybe the software generates an audio signal to send to the sound card by default even if we're not listening to it? Anyway, we'll give the ASIO driver a shot and see what happens.

[pipelineaudio]

Oh I thought you were controlling VST-i's

Some of this actually sounds like there might be some REALLY strong input quantization going on. Is there an option to turn it off or at least set it to something super small?

[Alden_Sloe]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Some of this actually sounds like there might be some REALLY strong input quantization going on. Is there an option to turn it off or at least set it to something super small?

Well, I don't know what would qualify for "strong" but it does seem to me that 1/16th notes are a little bit more that you should hope for with with this set-up. My son's the one with all the experience on Finale and Audacity but this is the first we've played with input from a keyboard and as such we're happy initially to get quantization to work at all. If there is some adjustment (i.e. "round off" to the nearest 1/8th note that would probably help. Looking briefly at Reaper it appears to be a more full featured editor.

Lot's to learn

[pipelineaudio]

If you download reaper, keep a chat window open by clicking http://www.mixxnet.net/java/?channel=reaper

or if you have a regular irc app: irc.mixxnet.net #reaper

There are some MIDIots on right now who would be a lot more help with this sort of thing than me.

[Alden_Sloe]

Thanks! More great information. We're most definitely in the more you learn the more you realize you don't know phase

I did look through the Reaper Wiki guide a fairly quickly was able to locate this page:

http://www.cockos.com/wiki/index.php/Quantize_menu

Seems like exactly what would fit the bill. Finale and Audacity may have similar functionality but it's obvious Reaper is another program that needs to be investigated. Unfortunatedly we won't be able to try any of this out for a couple of days since we'll be out of town for the New Years holiday.

[mattkw80]

Hey pipeline....

Since your the official REAPER dude around here.....


...do you know, or could you find out, for interests sake, what programming language is REAPER programmed in?

Just curious, and figured you've probably got the inside scoop.

[pipelineaudio]

REAPER is coded in c++ 6

The JS plugins are coded in the included Jesusonic language, which you can just hit "edit" and mess with in notepad ( http://www.jesusonic.com/ )

May also include some WDL http://cockos.com/wdl/

[mattkw80]

Wow cool.

Those guys must program for a living as well ?

[pipelineaudio]

There are two coders, though Scott Stillwell and Schwa from Stillwell Audio are always speaking with them

Here is the main coder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Frankel

[jpmorris]

Today, since we have unlimited tracks and things, its [timecode sync] not as important, except as a transfer feature, usually. It is often prohibitively expensive to add chase sync to a hardware device, so adding chase in reaper frees up cash to spend on other things

IMHO it's a rather more common requirement than you think, at least when working with MIDI.
In that case, I'd even venture that the only situation where it's not necessary is if Reaper is acting both as the recorder and the sequencer.

If you're using Reaper as a sequencer and anything else as a recorder, whether it is tape, a standalone DAW or even another PC, Reaper is going to have to chase an incoming MTC signal, unless you want to manually realign the tracks afterwards and hope they match

[pipelineaudio]

ideally the tape would be chasing the computer, which is the more stable source

[jpmorris]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

ideally the tape would be chasing the computer, which is the more stable source

IMHO, that's actually very rare. Firstly, most analogue decks simply can't0 do chase lock, at least not without expensive and rare hardware. MTC boxes, (where the computer chases the tape) are cheap and plentiful, however.

Secondly, it's much, much easier to compensate for the drift in software, since all it's doing is triggering MIDI notes periodically. So you just have to vary the gap between each beat.
Obviously things get a lot uglier if you've got samples since you'd have to timestretch them. In that case you would want to get the deck to chase if you can, but for soundtrack scoring work etc you're probably not going to need that.

[pipelineaudio]

Originally Posted by jpmorris

IMHO, that's actually very rare. Firstly, most analogue decks simply can't0 do chase lock, at least not without expensive and rare hardware. MTC boxes, (where the computer chases the tape) are cheap and plentiful, however.

Thats what post #7 was about