I Take it Back.

[Zaphod B]

My enthusiastic endorsement of modelers as "pretty-durned-close" replacements for actual guitar amps, that is.

I took some time off from my Pod XTL to get familiar with my Vox AC30CC. Switching back to the POD, I realized how much the modeler suffers by comparison.

To be fair, a lot of it has to do with the modeler being run through my Wharfedale active monitors, which are bookshelf-size and will never be capable of reproducing the movement of air off a pair of very efficient 12" guitar speakers.

What's really significant, though, is that every amp model has a very noticeable artifact that makes it sound as if you are playing a guitar with piezo pickups. Even though the tone of each individual guitar comes through pretty accurately (Strat sounds like a Strat, Tele like a Tele, etc...), the initial attack of each note is really unlike any passive pickup I have ever played through an actual amp. It sounds like the attack of an acoustic-electric with a Fishman or similar pickup system.

For the last couple of days I've been tracking guitars through the POD for a new project, and I'm trying to get a very soft strummed sound so that multiple tracks of this sound can be used as a soft, full background. But even when not using a pick, the modeler is picking up and accentuating every time the back of one of my fingernails hits a string, or I get a slight string pop, and it's a real pain in the ass.

I dunno. Maybe I need to get the manual back out and see if I have my presets all fucked up. I don't remember having this problem when I first started using the POD, but then again I hadn't played through an actual amp in a while.

[castlerock]

i hear ya zaph. i have one too and i like it, but it NEVER sounds as good as it does when i plug it into an amp.

there are not many amps i can plug directly into and like the sound so i can't say much about that but i do use my tonelab with my tube and solid state amps. that sound i like very much.

going di for recording though....well, my recording rig is crap so right now i have no choice. nothing like a mic and a good amp.

[tom18222]

you guys should check out atomic amps, they truly are amazing. that make your modeler scream

[castlerock]

Originally Posted by tom18222

you guys should check out atomic amps, they truly are amazing. that make your modeler scream

atomic amps? never heard of them, but i'll certainly check'em out.

right now i run the tonelab thru the clean channel of a carvin V3 and it sounds pretty wicked. =] i just need a good mic to try to capture that sound.

[Gear_Junky]

then there's the Tech 21 sansamps and their behringer knockoff - v-tone gdi21.

not really like a tube amp, but it's analog and can probably laugh at any pod behind its back

and the behringer is like $30, so it's not just laughing, it's histerical.

[PhiloBeddoe]

I'm definitely with you on real amps vs. modelers. IMO, it is a problem with dynamics. You can tell you're playing through a DSP, kind of like playing through a pedal with DSP like a Whammy or something. There's an inherent compression effect. It is especially apparent if you are doubling parts. They just don't 'breathe' like a real amp in a mix.

I'm not a hater, I use one sometimes for little fx guitars and bottom line is they are amazing little devices compared to stuff like the Rockmans and Zooms of yore. Fun, but real amps they are not.

[Track Rat]

PODs, etc, have their place (from time to time) and I still use them, but NOTHING sounds like an amp except an amp. Solid state or tube. An amp moving air in a room just has a thickness that the modelers just can't emulate.

[Gear_Junky]

Originally Posted by Track Rat

PODs, etc, have their place (from time to time) and I still use them, but NOTHING sounds like an amp except an amp. Solid state or tube. An amp moving air in a room just has a thickness that the modelers just can't emulate.

not disagreeing, but just trying to develop... this seems an issue separate from tube-tone itself. couldn't this "thickness" be achieved somewhat by double-tracking?

btw, sansamps have 3 "mic position" options - "classic", "off-axis" and "close" - they are voiced differently.

i've never actually recorded a sansamp, but heard some good reviews. maybe not as good as a real amp, but better than pods (so i heard).

[JPXTom]

I will say, i never would record DI, even if i had a pod...i'd use a pod for the massive amounts of tone, into a tube amp(like an atomic, as someone stated before), but mic it. DI-ing in general loses so much sound. And now that i have a 57, i am getting awesome tones micing up my line 6 amp, and ive di-ed it before..and its just god awful.

[tom18222]

Originally Posted by castlerock

atomic amps? never heard of them, but i'll certainly check'em out.

right now i run the tonelab thru the clean channel of a carvin V3 and it sounds pretty wicked. =] i just need a good mic to try to capture that sound.

yeah, www.atomicamps.com

[antichef]

I've got a Vox Tonelab SE - I've tweaked it a little (replacing and re-"trimming" the tube), and it does work pretty well for a lot of sounds now, DI or not -- it's easy to get a good lead sound out of it with DI, rhythm sounds are tougher, but there.

I used it DI to record two lead tracks that you can hear on this song:

http://www.macjams.com/song/30765

My first (and only) big amp is a Marshall JCM 800 2204 half stack that I bought new in 1986. The tonelab sounds awesome through the clean channel of that. For fun, I try to emulate the native sound of the dirty channel of the amp using the Tonelab through the clean channel. Haven't been able to produce an exact match yet, but I've come close.

I sometimes visit a forum dedicated to the tonelab se -- the folks there rave about the atomic amps, but I've never seen one.

[Track Rat]

Originally Posted by Gear_Junky

not disagreeing, but just trying to develop... this seems an issue separate from tube-tone itself. couldn't this "thickness" be achieved somewhat by double-tracking?

btw, sansamps have 3 "mic position" options - "classic", "off-axis" and "close" - they are voiced differently.

i've never actually recorded a sansamp, but heard some good reviews. maybe not as good as a real amp, but better than pods (so i heard).

I like tube amps best but I think the mojo is in miking a speaker, recording wise. A mic catching moving air. I have an AX2 (a POD with an amp under it into two 12's) and it records better than a POD lined in. The difference is the moving air and a mic. Modelers and modeling amps don't do the nuances of tube amplifiers very well (the way a tube amp behaves when you play lightly and then dig in) but that's not the issue. It's back to a speaker moving air into a microphone (plus mic choice, positioning, room acoustics, playing style, etc). It's not really even speaker size. My Ampeg Gemini VI has a 15" and records beautifully. My Rivera has a 10" and records beautifully. My home built 5 watt tube amp has a 8" and records beautifully. My AX2 has two 12's and records nicely. All out perform the POD or J Station in fatness (whatever that means). There's just some beef there I don't get going in direct. I base this on years of owning and using Rockman, POD, J Station, ART SGX 2000, V Tone, etc. About the only modeler I haven't had my hands on is the Sansamp.

[legionserial]

I borrowed a POD from a friend for a while, and after an evening of fucking around with it, I managed to twiddle what I thought was a really good metal tone out of it. The next day I was playing guitar through my amp, and eventually decided to piss around with the POD again. So I plug it all in, load up my 'metal' preset nd I was like "what?". It sounded like ass compared to the amp I had just been playing. I guess you ears can become accustomed to certain types of sound.

There is a lot I like about the POD tho. I love it for experimentation, and when I'm laying down some scratch tracks. It's good for defining the type of tone you want for a given piece, even if it isn't the exact tone you're after....if that makes sense.

[Track Rat]

Originally Posted by legionserial

There is a lot I like about the POD tho. I love it for experimentation, and when I'm laying down some scratch tracks. It's good for defining the type of tone you want for a given piece, even if it isn't the exact tone you're after....if that makes sense.

Yup.........