Another Question about action and Martins

[MK-Ultra]

Hi there,

Last week I was in a shop that had a Martin OM-21 on sale. The action was a bit high, and so I asked the tech if he could sand the saddle. He told me that Martins were really not capable of low action, and though there was plenty of saddle sticking up out of the bridge, that he wouldn't sand it. He did file the nut a bit, which helped, but the strings still felt a bit too taut and high. Now, someone on another forum said this was bullshite, and that I could sand the saddle down without fear of fret buzz, as long as I did it slowly and carefully. The neck relief was fine.

Honestly, I am having problems finding a Martin here that suits me. I know it's possible, I've played a few very good ones. I recently bought two 000-15s: the first one had a HUGE crack on the bottom, the second a small gap between the neck and body at the joint. Both have gone back to the online shop where I ordered them from. The shop that has the OM-21 on sale is clearing out their Martins, are cutting their ties with Martin, having nothing nice to say about Martin, even saying that Martin ships all of their crappy units to Germany. Given that I've really been unimpressed with just about every Martin I've played here, I find it hard to disagree, unless there is a significant drop in quality in all of their instruments.

I am probably going to have to go out of town to a shop a couple of hours drive away from here. If I can't find a Martin there that suits me, I guess I'll just have to buy something else.

Any thoughts on the setup/action issue on the Martins?

Cheers, and thanks,

MK

[Roguetitan]

all I can say is that tech is fulll of shit

[Track Rat]

In my experience, Martins aren't slippery (I have two). But they're more than playable. Your tech is misinformed.

[normalizer]

maybe the tech was covering up a bad neck. it happens all the time..

[Richard Monroe]

Martins do tend to be set up pretty high, but guitars are like fingerprints, all different. How low the action can go depends on the specific guitar, the strings, and the player. Maybe what you're saying is that you don't really like that guitar. Why spend a lot of effort trying to make the guitar suit you? I would say, take your money and travel to a badass guitar store, no matter how far that is. Then play some Taylors, Gibsons, Huss and Daltons, Breedloves, Froggy Bottom,McPhersons,etc., and yes, some Martins. Then shell out the big bucks for the badass guitar that already is what you want it to be. And stop worrying about whether it says Martin on the headstock. Good Luck-Richie

P.S. And maybe the tech at that real guitar store will be a real Luthier, and know what he's talking about.

[MK-Ultra]

Thanks for your replies. This local shop is dodgy, I could write a decent essay/rant about them and the 3 guitars I bought there this summer.

My budget is not limitless, unfortunately. As I mentioned, I had originally tried to buy the 000-15 (around €900.00), but both units had a problem (the first looked like someone had tried to hammer in the end pin). I also have a Taylor, so I want something to offset its brightness (hence the mahogany Martin). You're right about the OM-21. I want it to fit me because they're selling it at about €300.00 off the regular price. Interesting thing is, they're selling it with the basic wood case that the lower end Martins come with. The OM-21 ships with a molded case.

The shop where I am thinking of going has some nice guitars, some on sale, and they have the D/000-15 that I would prefer.

They are also one of the only shops around that has Larrivees, but they are ridiculously priced here, unfortunately.

Anyone heard of Lakewood gits? They're solid wood, made here in Germany, and some are within reach. They even have a whole mahogany model.

Cheers,

MK

[Roguetitan]

Originally Posted by MK-Ultra

Thanks for your replies. This local shop is dodgy, I could write a decent essay/rant about them and the 3 guitars I bought there this summer.

My budget is not limitless, unfortunately. As I mentioned, I had originally tried to buy the 000-15 (around €900.00), but both units had a problem (the first looked like someone had tried to hammer in the end pin). I also have a Taylor, so I want something to offset its brightness (hence the mahogany Martin). You're right about the OM-21. I want it to fit me because they're selling it at about €300.00 off the regular price. Interesting thing is, they're selling it with the basic wood case that the lower end Martins come with. The OM-21 ships with a molded case.

The shop where I am thinking of going has some nice guitars, some on sale, and they have the D/000-15 that I would prefer.

They are also one of the only shops around that has Larrivees, but they are ridiculously priced here, unfortunately.

Anyone heard of Lakewood gits? They're solid wood, made here in Germany, and some are within reach. They even have a whole mahogany model.

Cheers,

MK

Have you ever considered a Warrior?
Mighty fine acoustic guitars.
I know the Luthier Personally

[32-20-Blues]

Light will no doubt give you the definitive word, but regarding Martins and action, a low action is definitely possible; TelePaul has a D15 that plays like butter.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by MK-Ultra

Hi there,

Last week I was in a shop that had a Martin OM-21 on sale. The action was a bit high, and so I asked the tech if he could sand the saddle. He told me that Martins were really not capable of low action, and though there was plenty of saddle sticking up out of the bridge, that he wouldn't sand it.

Did he say why? Sounds like bullshit to me. A Martin is capable of the same action as any other acoustic of the same type. I would think one of the following is more likely.

1/ He can't be bothered
2/ He dosen't know how
3/ There is no mark up on it for him to play with.

If the guitar is sound in all other ways you could take the money your saving and spend some of it on a decent setup.

If I was you I'd stay clear of that shop but you pays yer money and takes your choice.

He did file the nut a bit, which helped, but the strings still felt a bit too taut and high. Now, someone on another forum said this was bullshite, and that I could sand the saddle down without fear of fret buzz, as long as I did it slowly and carefully. The neck relief was fine.

MK

Filing the nut slots is not a fix to high action it is just one part of a decent setup. You can reduce the saddle height but again you will need to do more setup work to get it right. Setting the neck relief and dresseing the fingerboard possibly.

I would have someone who "knows" setups inside out look at it with you if your at all suspicious.

The shop that has the OM-21 on sale is clearing out their Martins, are cutting their ties with Martin, having nothing nice to say about Martin, even saying that Martin ships all of their crappy units to Germany. Given that I've really been unimpressed with just about every Martin I've played here, I find it hard to disagree, unless there is a significant drop in quality in all of their instruments.

Thats rubbish. I think there is a bit of sour grapes there. I have my own opinion of Martin guitars but I wouldn't slag them off with complete fabricated bullshit. If you've been unimpressed with them why are you still after a Martin. There are many fine high end makes out there who make decent guitars, Martin is one of them. Check some out.

I am probably going to have to go out of town to a shop a couple of hours drive away from here. If I can't find a Martin there that suits me, I guess I'll just have to buy something else.

Cheers, and thanks,

Thats what I'd advise. Shop around try em all and buy the one you like to play best and not the one with the name that makes you feel secure.

Good luck.

[Light]

Any guitar can be setup to play well, and I've seen many Martin's which had plenty low action. The thing is, it is always a trade off. If you get the action on ANY guitar too low, it will buzz when you play it harder. It is not so much that it can't be lower. The issue is that you lose dynamic range as you lower the action. So, if you are a heavy duty bluegrass player, you are never going to be able to have your action as low as a new-age fingerstyle player.

But it should be possible to get any guitars action appropriate for your style of playing, assuming the geometry is all in order. Certainly, there is no question that a Martin can have low action under the right circumstances, but not having seen the guitar in question I can't give you a definitive answer.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[chrisharris]

Originally Posted by MK-Ultra

He told me that Martins were really not capable of low action

Ok, I don't know much, but if he said that...as a global statement about Martins, then he knows even less than I do.

I really hate that Martin has attached its name to a lot of shitty guitars in the past 15 years, but the company still makes (in my opinion) some of the highest quality acoustic guitars on the planet. But I think they've gone kinda' "Gucci" on us, and they've just allowed their headstock to go onto some bad instruments.

I personally prefer Martins that are set a bit higher, because to me, they're not finesse instruments...they're meant to be loud, and they're meant to be played aggressively. FLAT PICKIN, BABY!!! But to say that the line, as a whole, is incapable of being set low is ludicrous.

[chrisharris]

Ok, basically what Light said, lol.

Incidentally, I'm a Larrivee fan, but the philosophy is kind of the same. You'll generally find that every Taylor you pick up off the rack is going to be easier to play than any Larrivee dreadnought, but it's a tradeoff in terms of whether you prefer gut resonating, testicle shaking acoustic loudness or something lighter.

[MK-Ultra]

Originally Posted by muttley600

Thats rubbish. I think there is a bit of sour grapes there. I have my own opinion of Martin guitars but I wouldn't slag them off with complete fabricated bullshit. If you've been unimpressed with them why are you still after a Martin. There are many fine high end makes out there who make decent guitars, Martin is one of them. Check some out.




Good luck.

Well, thanks.

I still want a Martin because I want that 'sound' that Chris Harris was just describing, and, as I've said, the model I want is really the antithesis of my Taylor, in terms of tone. This gearlust started a few weeks ago when I played a D-15 in another local shop. That proprietor comes from the obsequious school of customer 'service' and plays games. He offered me the D-15 without the case that Martin shipped it with. That lost my sale right there, which is too bad, because these D-15s had the tone I want. Further, the Martin guarantee doesn't apply outside of North America, and I have no confidence that this guy would honour any agreement.

The store to which I was referring to earlier had around 15 or so Martins (not counting the X models). I tried a few D-28s that sounded pretty flat, even though the strings had just been changed. And these weren't Standard 28s, either, but the more expensive ones. Only one of them, I think, had any kind of tone that made me go !!!. As for the tech, well, let's say that we have a major difference in philosophy. Our first encounter occurred when I had bought an Artcore AF95 VLS, that had an intermittent rattle, and string buzzing. The tech put some nail polish in the saddle (the rattle seemed to be coming from back there) and sent me home saying 'you can't expect too much from a cheap guitar.' When I brought it back again, he suggested that I could pay a luthier connected to the shop to 'make it perfect.' He had discovered a hump around the 14th fret, and I would have to pay to have a just-bought, defective, guitar fixed. I refused, he offered me an exchange to a more expensive model, which I agreed to. He took the first guitar and put it back up on the wall to wait for the next sucker.

That's just one story. Bottom line is, I don't have a lot of selection here, so that trip out of town is about my only option.

Thanks for your replies! If and when I get the D-00015, I'll have a little more confidence in trying to set it up myself and not bother with the guy at that shop.

Cheers,

MK

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by MK-Ultra

Further, the Martin guarantee doesn't apply outside of North America, and I have no confidence that this guy would honour any agreement.

That just isn't true at least not here in Europe. I've done warranty work for them. Where are you again?

I would suggest you just forget the shop altogether anyway. If they are that bad before a sale I can't imagine how bad they'll be after. arrange a few days to the nearest big city and go on a gear hunt. Tie it up with some site seeing and maybe take in a show. Treat yourself to a weekend away. If you do that you won't feel like you have had a wasted journey if you don't find the guitar your looking for. Be patient it is out there. Good luck.

[MK-Ultra]

Originally Posted by muttley600

That just isn't true at least not here in Europe. I've done warranty work for them. Where are you again?

I would suggest you just forget the shop altogether anyway. If they are that bad before a sale I can't imagine how bad they'll be after. arrange a few days to the nearest big city and go on a gear hunt. Tie it up with some site seeing and maybe take in a show. Treat yourself to a weekend away. If you do that you won't feel like you have had a wasted journey if you don't find the guitar your looking for. Be patient it is out there. Good luck.

Germany. When I got the second 000-15, the warranty card expressly said that the distributor, not Martin, would warranty the guitar for 2 years, which I think is the minimum by law here. I could take a pic of it if you wish. The first 000-15 arrived with neither the warranty card, or 'Care and Feeding,' leading me to believe that it was the floor model (with a bad, BAD gash on the bottom, that SOMEONE SHOULD'VE SEEN).

After all this, I am probably going to bide my time. I'll find the right guitar when I find the right guitar, and then I'll either do some slight setting up myself, or have a pro do it (if I can find one around here, jeez....)

Cheers,

MK

[muttley600]

The Warranty is honoured by the distributer in all countries. I'm not sure about the US as thats Martins home country but I believe they don't handle warranty work at Martin any longer. All repairs are done through authorised Warranty shops. It's the same here. I'd be suprised if it was different in Germany. I get people bring me instruments I quote them and get the go ahead from the distributor. I've never had a problem.

It's standard practice to deal with warranty issues through the distributer. In the UK it's Westside Distribution based in Scotland. In Germany it's AMI Musical Instruments. You may want to give them a call to find out exactly whats covered. As far as I was aware you get your national statutory rights plus the Martin Warranty? Thats how it generally is here in the UK. Give them a call. The service here is pretty good. I have no experience of the German counterparts. You should get the normal Martin Warranty if not ask them why and write to Martin.

[mrface2112]

Originally Posted by chrisharris

Incidentally, I'm a Larrivee fan, but the philosophy is kind of the same. You'll generally find that every Taylor you pick up off the rack is going to be easier to play than any Larrivee dreadnought, but it's a tradeoff in terms of whether you prefer gut resonating, testicle shaking acoustic loudness or something lighter.

well said, sir. i feel the same way, except swap Larrivee with Martin. Taylors, IMO, play great....they just sound....eh.

oh, and Muttley, you're right about Martin not doing warranty work at the factory anymore. it's been that way for a number of years now. they were getting too inundated with people wanting their guitars to "take a trip back to nazareth".

the sad thing is, there are a lot of martin distributors that i wouldn't let come anywhere near my guitar.


cheers,
wade

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by mrface2112

oh, and Muttley, you're right about Martin not doing warranty work at the factory anymore. it's been that way for a number of years now. they were getting too inundated with people wanting their guitars to "take a trip back to nazareth".

the sad thing is, there are a lot of martin distributors that i wouldn't let come anywhere near my guitar.


cheers,
wade

You got that right, I hang on to my endorsement with pride others seem to take it as a given. Sad thing is Martin won't vet places like they used to they only react to serious multiple complaints.

MK-Ultra, stick at it and have fun hunting down that guitar of your dreams. You may have higher expectations than some but that is no bad thing. The one thing about a Martin even if it's not perfect for you, if you look after it it will not cost you much when you sell it on if anything.

Explore all options and enjoy the ride.

[Light]

Current Martin Warranty policy in the US is that all repairs up to about $500 can be done in the field, but anything over that has to go back to the factory. It used to be that anything other than refinishing work (for instance, they had a bad batch of lacquer a few years back which causes finishes to bubble up and separate from the guitars, which all end up going back to the factory for refinishing) could be done in the field, and for a while they were actively trying to keep people from sending guitars back, but since the most recent factory expansion the cost of running their repair shop has gone down (they have more space, so the repair shop no longer takes up space they would rather use for building new guitars), and they are doing more work in the factory.

I've heard rumors they also had some issues with some shops charging them for work which was not done (NOT MINE!!!!! - even though we are one of their largest warranty shops, they tell us our tickets average about half the dollar amount of what other shops average - we just do a lot more of them), so that probably entered into the decision as well.

The real bitch of it is that the cap is set about $50-$100 under the cost of a typical `70's Martin warranty repair (which is to say, a saddle-back bridge to fix the intonation, a neck reset, repairing the pickguard crack, and replacing the pickguard - and I can usually diagnose all of that before the case even opens, as I'm sure can muttley), which means that the customers end up having to wait while we send their guitars back (and of course, pay for shipping both ways), and to wait an extra 1-3 months to get their guitars back (Martin HAS been doing better about their turn around time lately, but at the cost of some slightly questionable practices in the neck reset area).

Personally, if they want to save some money on their warranty policy, I'm of the opinion (as are most good repair people I know) that they should cap neck resets at 20 or 25 years. After that long, it's no longer a defect in workmanship or materials, it's just the nature of building a guitar that sounds good. After that many years, it is an uncommon guitar which DOESN'T need a neck reset, and there are quite a few well known repair people around the country who are pushing them to cap the neck resets. They were talking about it for a while, but they just couldn't bring themselves to pull the trigger. Shame, really, but I think they are afraid that the internet weenies would make a bit of a fuss.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[Light]

Originally Posted by muttley600

You got that right, I hang on to my endorsement with pride others seem to take it as a given. Sad thing is Martin won't vet places like they used to they only react to serious multiple complaints.

Dad met and became fast friends with Mike Longworth (to be fair, most people became fast friends with Mike) when he came out to vet us back in the seventies. It helped that the former local warranty shop was closing (the guy was like 80 and wanted to retire), and was a good friend (and, to some degree, a mentor) of dads, but even with his endorsement Mike still came out to see who we were and what kind of work we did.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[MK-Ultra]

Thanks for sharing your experience, guys.

I've decided to try ordering one more time from Thomann, this time a D-15 rather than the 000. 3 times lucky, right?

Cheers,

MK

[32-20-Blues]

Originally Posted by MK-Ultra

Thanks for sharing your experience, guys.

I've decided to try ordering one more time from Thomann, this time a D-15 rather than the 000. 3 times lucky, right?

Cheers,

MK

Thomann, hmmm? I hate the way they refuse to ship a guitar in a hardcase even if you pay for the hardcase seperately. Apparently, it's a logistics issue in the warehouse.

The D15 comes with a hardcase as standard, so you should be okay.

I've a danelectro on the way from them at the moment, so I'll be keeping my fingers crossed too. Thomann haven't let me down in the past, but I've heard plenty of bad stories.

[TelePaul]

Go D15s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MK-Ultra]

Originally Posted by 32-20-Blues

Thomann, hmmm? I hate the way they refuse to ship a guitar in a hardcase even if you pay for the hardcase seperately. Apparently, it's a logistics issue in the warehouse.

The D15 comes with a hardcase as standard, so you should be okay.

I've a danelectro on the way from them at the moment, so I'll be keeping my fingers crossed too. Thomann haven't let me down in the past, but I've heard plenty of bad stories.

I've done a fair bit of business with Thomann, and the issues I've had with the two 000-15s have been the only issues I've had with them. Also, when I shipped the first guitar back to them, the replacement took twice as long to get here, and sending that one back again took a lot longer than if it was just a standard order, so they must use a cheaper service for the returns. I've been trying to get a guitar from them since the end of October, and here we are coming into the end of November. I decided to give them one more shot at this, though, before I turn elsewhere.

Cheers,

MK

[toyL]

Unless you have paid the maufacturer for a "special-order", and provided them specific specs, ALL new guitars need to be set-up. This would definitely include sanding a bit off of the bottom of the plastic bridge-piece.