Adjusting The truss rod to lower the action

[MatchBookNotes]

Hey, would it be terribly difficult to do this myself or should I bone up the 30-80 dollars for long and mcdonalds to do this for me, and possibly ground my guitar properly, could i also do that myself?

[Light]

The truss rod is not for adjusting the action. It is to adjust the neck bow. Certainly, it will EFFECT the action, but it is far from a precise adjustment. If you want it done right, a good shop (assuming there is one available to you) is good idea.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[MatchBookNotes]

Well, I actually just sat down and read the section on string height and necks in this electric guitar repair book/set up thing i found at the library, it said for bolt on necks that i can loosen the neck and put in a fit piece to lower or heighten the action. I'm going to attempt it tomorrow at some point if its at all advisable.
I simple want to lower my action.

[Big Kenny]

By all means, and then go out and align your own wheels on your car...

[Roguetitan]

Do not shim the neck
bridge heighth adjusts the action

Here is a PDF for setting up a guitar if you go by these guidelines you will be able to set up your guitar without any troubles, something that any guitarist should know how to do if they have been playing any length of time. it is not quite as complex as some people let on like alighning your front end, it is just that some people don't have any mechanical abilitys to do a simple procedure.
setting up a guitar is not brain surgery however there are certan procedures that you should follow to do it right and if you can follow these instructions you should be able to do it your self with no problems.
http://images.misupply.com/content/14/Guitar_Setup.pdf

[Lectric_Lab]

another detail sometimes over looked is the neck fret nut, but filing the nut is a precise detail in lowering action and could cause alot of problems if not done correctly in conjuction with brdge height adj and intonation.

[RandyW]

Originally Posted by Light

The truss rod is not for adjusting the action. It is to adjust the neck bow. Certainly, it will EFFECT the action, but it is far from a precise adjustment. If you want it done right, a good shop (assuming there is one available to you) is good idea.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

I disagree with you on this one if adjust rod your are lowering or raising your
action to some degree. Of course you can ajust action at the bridge as well.
In fact it is a combination of these two that usually take you to that magical
sweet spot.

For example if you tighten you truss rod you are reducing bow thus pulling the head stock back, your also bringing the strings closer to the neck by changing the angle from the bridge to the nut. This will usually make the action much lowered on the first 5 frets especially. If it's possible I would prefer to try this rather than lowering strings slots especially on a new guitar.

Matchbook if you just need to lower the action at the basic open chord position I would tighten up 1/4 turn let it set for 20 minutes and see if it
fixes you problem. You can always loosen it up 1/4 and put it back where it
was. If your worried about turning this nut there is know way I would take the neck off you'll have a lot more going on if you result to that route.

If you have terribly high action you should be able to lower it at the bridge
but I you go that route you'll end up having the work with the intonation.
If that is the case I would just take it is for a setup or do a google search
there are a million articles on doing this. I myself feel taking the neck off and
shimming it is an absolute last resort in your case with out seeing it.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by RandyW

I disagree with you on this one if adjust rod your are lowering or raising your
action to some degree. Of course you can ajust action at the bridge as well.
In fact it is a combination of these two that usually take you to that magical
sweet spot.

For example if you tighten you truss rod you are reducing bow thus pulling the head stock back, your also bringing the strings closer to the neck by changing the angle from the bridge to the nut. This will usually make the action much lowered on the first 5 frets especially. If it's possible I would prefer to try this rather than lowering strings slots especially on a new guitar.

Matchbook if you just need to lower the action at the basic open chord position I would tighten up 1/4 turn let it set for 20 minutes and see if it
fixes you problem. You can always loosen it up 1/4 and put it back where it
was. If your worried about turning this nut there is know way I would take the neck off you'll have a lot more going on if you result to that route.

If you have terribly high action you should be able to lower it at the bridge
but I you go that route you'll end up having the work with the intonation.
If that is the case I would just take it is for a setup or do a google search
there are a million articles on doing this. I myself feel taking the neck off and
shimming it is an absolute last resort in your case with out seeing it.

Light is correct. The purpose of the truss rod is to counteract the pull of the strings and compensate for the introduction of too much bow. It is not to raise or lower the action and has absolutely minimal effect of the neck angle. Your nut will not be lowered or raised in relation to the bridge. If it is your yanking on it too much and your going to cause some serious damage. You want as flat a fingerboard as possible with just enough relief to stop the strings natural vibrating arc from buzzing on frets further up the fretboard.

The action of a guitar is adjusted at the saddle. If you can't get it right from there you need to look at the neck angle but only then. The nut should be cut to act as another fret, same hight as the first fret or if your nervous very slightly higher. Too high and you'll have intonation problems.

[RandyW]

Originally Posted by muttley600

Light is correct. The purpose of the truss rod is to counteract the pull of the strings and compensate for the introduction of too much bow. It is not to raise or lower the action and has absolutely minimal effect of the neck angle. Your nut will not be lowered or raised in relation to the bridge. If it is your yanking on it too much and your going to cause some serious damage. You want as flat a fingerboard as possible with just enough relief to stop the strings natural vibrating arc from buzzing on frets further up the fretboard.

The action of a guitar is adjusted at the saddle. If you can't get it right from there you need to look at the neck angle but only then. The nut should be cut to act as another fret, same hight as the first fret or if your nervous very slightly higher. Too high and you'll have intonation problems.

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I know what the purpose of truss rod is for, and know one is talking about going crazy "yanking on it". Your telling me reducing the bow in the neck is not going to pull the head stock back and reduce the distance between the bottom of the string and the top of the first fret and in doing so create a lower action "to some degree" . Every time you change the gauge of your
strings you need to adjust your truss rod to compensate for it. If you put
light guage strings on a guitar that has medium heavy gauge strings the
strings may well even be laying of top of the first fret. Your not going to toss the nut and cut a taller one your going to reduce the tension on the truss rod and regain your proper proper relief which inversed.
I agree with you on trying to keep the neck as straight as possible. And it is a no brainer that you raise the bridge and lower the brigde for major adustment.
But on a new guitar once you put your prefered string on the the first thing your going to do is adjust the truss rod like you say to get the proper relief.
With out seeing the guitar and what is actually happening there is no way to
tell what it really needs but turning the truss rod nut 1/4 of turn is not going to hurt it UNLESS it is already at its limit. I actually think when you get everything else setup perfectly the truss adjustment is the last fine
increment to a setups action. Hey it works for me any way I have 23 guitars and 5 mandolins and have never paid a dime to some one such as yourself

[ggunn]

Apples and oranges. Adjusting the truss rod does different things to the action than raising or lowering the bridge saddles, which affects it differently than making changes to the nut. They all affect the action, but not interchangeably; what you need to change depends on what is wrong, and if you adjust the wrong variable all you can do is make it worse.

[Lt. Bob]

Yes taking out the bow will lower the action some amount (probably not much but some) HOWEVER ...... we don't know that this neck has any bow and if not, then tightening that truss rod is a bad thing period without any redeeming qualities.
IF your neck is bowed then adjusting the truss rod should be done ..... but it's still not the appropriate first thing to do for lowering actions.

[BushmasterM4]

OMG !!! Shimming a neck ? Things people do.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by RandyW

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I know what the purpose of truss rod is for, and know one is talking about going crazy "yanking on it". Your telling me reducing the bow in the neck is not going to pull the head stock back and reduce the distance between the bottom of the string and the top of the first fret and in doing so create a lower action "to some degree" . Every time you change the gauge of your
strings you need to adjust your truss rod to compensate for it. If you put
light guage strings on a guitar that has medium heavy gauge strings the
strings may well even be laying of top of the first fret. Your not going to toss the nut and cut a taller one your going to reduce the tension on the truss rod and regain your proper proper relief which inversed.
I agree with you on trying to keep the neck as straight as possible. And it is a no brainer that you raise the bridge and lower the brigde for major adustment.
But on a new guitar once you put your prefered string on the the first thing your going to do is adjust the truss rod like you say to get the proper relief.
With out seeing the guitar and what is actually happening there is no way to
tell what it really needs but turning the truss rod nut 1/4 of turn is not going to hurt it UNLESS it is already at its limit. I actually think when you get everything else setup perfectly the truss adjustment is the last fine
increment to a setups action. Hey it works for me any way I have 23 guitars and 5 mandolins and have never paid a dime to some one such as yourself

I explain this stuff so you can have a go and not pay me a cent so thats cool...

What I'm saying is that the truss rod is not a tool to adjust action. You set the action with the saddle and the nut. You use the truss rod to stop the strings choking and buzzing. The maximum amount of relief I would accept on a neck would be around 0.4mm or 0.013" thats not a lot but enough to stop the strings choking. I'd normally hope for less. If you have any more relief than that you should really start looking at why and investigate the cause of the problem. The relief will vary from instrument to instrument and be dependent on the string gauge and type/ length of the rod. Where it has it's greatest effect is also a consideration. Typically it's between frets 7 and 9 but it does depend on length of the rod and the guitar.

Here's how 99% of experienced setu guys would approach it.

First string up and set the action at the requested hight using saddles and nut adjustments. Next with the guitar up to pitch pull the rod back so the there is little or no relief. Slowly introduce the relief until the guitar plays without buzzing. Your making a very specific adjustment that effects the action by about the thickness of your top E normally. The fine adjustments to the action are done at the nut and saddle after that. My point is and I'm fairly sure that Light would agree is that the truss rod is not a tool to raise or lower the action. That was the question raised by the OP.

For a good primer on truss rods. Frank Fords site is as usual right on the money.

Truss rods and adjustments

In it he says some key things that just about every experienced luthier understand. I've known him for a number of years and he is widely respected by just about everyone in the business. He says this.

Regardless of the type, an adjustable truss rod affects only the shaft of the neck, the flexible portion from the nut to the thick part at the heel. The idea is to control the straightness of the neck by bending it backward against the pull of the strings, if necessary. But there are a few points of confusion about the utility of truss rods.

I think the second most important piece of misinformation is that a truss rod will prevent the eventual need for resetting the neck. I'll be dealing with the neck reset issue in future articles, so for now I'll just say that a truss rod has absolutely no effect on neck angle.

The single most common misconception is that truss rods are for adjusting action or intonation. While adjusting the truss rod does affect the playing action, that's a side effect and not the purpose for the adjustment. As a general rule, once the nut and truss rod are set, all action adjustment is done at the bridge, by raising or lowering the saddle. Intonation is affected by action, too, so correcting the action may improve intonation, but again, that's a side effect.

I'm happy that you get to successfully keep all your guitars in shape without paying a luthier honest, I was just pointing out what the deal is. So in answer to the OP no do not attempt to adjust your action by adjusting the truss rod. Set it at the saddle and then remove buzzing buy introducing relief.

[Light]

Originally Posted by RandyW

I disagree with you on this one if adjust rod your are lowering or raising your
action to some degree.

You can disagree all you want, but your wrong. As I said, the truss rod will effect the action, but it does NOT adjust it. End of story.

Oh, and shimming the neck is fine, if you can't get the action where it needs to be by adjusting the bridge. But use the bridge first, and see if you can get what you need that way. If not, then you can start to think about shimming the neck.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[Roguetitan]

Originally Posted by Light

You can disagree all you want, but your wrong. As I said, the truss rod will effect the action, but it does NOT adjust it. End of story.

Oh, and shimming the neck is fine, if you can't get the action where it needs to be by adjusting the bridge. But use the bridge first, and see if you can get what you need that way. If not, then you can start to think about shimming the neck.



Light

I agree with you about the truss rod but if the Op cannot get the action right by lowering the bridge i think it is then time to take it to a tech who knows the drill about getting the action right. it is never a good Idea to shim the neck when you can work on the bridge and nut to get the action right, shimming the neck would be my very last resort .

when it is absolutley necessessiary to have to raise the front or back of the neck in the pocket I do not shim unless it is absolutley necessiary and in most cases I find it is not necessiary, rather I shave down the neck with a plane that I have specifically for this purpose either taking material off of the front tapering back or back tapering forward then sand it flat and flush,usually when it is necessiary to remove material from the neck where it seats in the pocket i find that the landing is not perfectly parallell with the finger board however it is fractional difference but a fractional difference can be a lot from the top to bottom span of the neck it only takes a fraction of material removal to get it right.


any time I take a neck off of an instrument i spend the extra time to level the neck and frets and crown the frets for optimal performance and ease of playability of the instrument after all that is the whole purpose in lowering the action to begin with so it plays like buttah

[Lumpy]

Originally Posted by RandyW

...I disagree with you on this one if adjust rod your are lowering or raising your action to some degree...

Increasing or decreasing your tire pressure will raise
or lower your car to some degree. But that's not the
purpose of tire pressure.

The truss rod has a specific purpose. That is to adjust
the relief of the neck. If you use it to adjust the action,
the relief will not be optimal. Just as if you lowered your
tire pressure to adjust the car body height, the tire pressure
would then not be optimal.

Assuming all the frets are level, it's -
Nut height, truss rod relief, saddle height.
In that order.

Lumpy

You Played on Lawrence Welk?
Yes but no blue notes. Just blue hairs.

www.LumpyGuitar.net

[Light]

Oh, there is nothing wrong with shimming the neck, particularly with most Fenders where the neck pocket is loose anyway. The important thing is to get the geometry correct. I mean, if you can get the action where it belongs, but you have to have your saddles all most all the way down to do it, your not going to have much room for future adjustment. So you shim it. As often as not, when we shim necks we end up doing a shim the full length of the pock which is tapered appropriately, ending with close to nothing. But then again, with those POS three bolt '70's necks, we put a piece of screen door mesh in there to keep the necks from shifting around. In the end, there is nothing really wrong with it, but it certainly is STILL not an accurate way to adjust the action. Action is adjusted at the nut and the bridge. Simple as that.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[Roguetitan]

Originally Posted by Light

The important thing is to get the geometry correct.

And

Action is adjusted at the nut and the bridge. Simple as that.

YEP

[rayc]

I'll say this without reading most of the posts - just to show what a gumby like me can know & understand: Action change is a possible byproduct of neck adjustment not the reason for it.
I had a rod adjustment done about 2 months ago becuase of a slight variation in relief due to a change to very light strings. It is a significant task - I've done heaps of fiddling about with guitars over time but neck adjustments are the thing I won't even contemplate - I'm just AFRAID of stuffing everything up. I use professionals.
Shims - well again not a thing to stuff about with. You came to the forum, started a thread, asked for advice, was given quite a bit of very good info heavily weighted in one direction - you're not happy? If you want some one to agree with you - go and ask your mates.
In the end ask yourself: "Do I like my guitar?" if you answer yes - go to a professional. If N , give/sell it to someone less fortunate.
Better still - do it while you're drunk & that way you'll have an excuse.