Reaper vs. Pro Tools

[Hangfire]

I'm buying a new system from the ground up. So far I'm thinking of a mini mac w/PT or PC w/Reaper. I'd like to start recording asap so I need something with an easy learning curve. Any help is greatly appreciated!

[Sinistah]

Reaper has turned Pro-Tools into a caveman-ish type overpriced DAW that only stubborn elitists support

i'd say leave Pro-Tools for the buzzards to grub off of and let Reaper go for the kill......













just kidding i don't use and isn't too familliar with using either....

[pipelineaudio]

If your primary concern is to share files with PT users, and you dont care about modern features, or performance and you dont mind being locked into a proprietary hardware scheme, then go with PT.

That might sound silly, but there are plenty of situations where it actually makes sense

[steve.h]

Speaking as a person who's gone both routes professionally, I'd say it depends on your long-term goals. If you want to be able to take your projects to larger studios to mix, or if you plan on working as a freelance engineer, or as an on-staff engineer at a recording studio, I recommend learning Pro Tools as soon and as well as you can. If that's not a big deal to you, or if you don't see yourself really moving out of a home-studio environment, then the benefits of learning Pro Tools are greatly reduced.

Basically, with Pro Tools, you're paying a premium for no reason other than being able to use Pro Tools. Almost any other program (Reaper, Sonar, Cubase, Digital Performer, etc.) will let you use whatever hardware you like, whatever plugins you like, and will most likely have more features than Pro Tools. Pro Tools locks you in to Digidesign-approved hardware (not many choices) and Digidesign-approved plugins. The main advantage of using Pro Tools comes into play when you get one of their HD systems, as they have onboard effects processing which takes almost all of the processor load off of your computer. This is why you see professional studios running 48+ channels of audio with tons of effects, on an old G3 or G4 mac. Consumer/pro-sumer systems like the Digi002/003, M-Box, etc. don't have any onboard processing power, and thus don't really give you any advantage whatsoever over non-Pro Tools compatible hardware.


On the computer side of things, a well-built PC will work just fine with Reaper/whatever program you choose, but make sure to read up as much as you can on hardware/software compatibility issues and whatnot, as many times things like what chipset your motherboard uses, or what version of what drivers you use for stuff, makes a huge difference in stability. This is a large reason why many people prefer mac's over Windows-based PC's: stability. Yes, you *can* create an incredibly fast, stable, and relatively inexpensive PC that will work for you for years and years without issue, but it simply takes more work/research/maintenance than a similarly-configured mac. This is coming from a guy who's built/repaired his own PC's for 10+ years. I just went the Pro Tools route with a MacBook Pro and, while I miss some things about Sonar, I definitely don't miss a single thing about my PC except for it's gaming capabilities (which I don't really care about as I work so much I don't really have time for gaming anyway Except for the odd Diablo 2 session here or there hah)

When it comes to Mac Mini's, be sure to get the higher-end one. The ones with the smaller amount of ram are SEVERELY limited. Recording programs take a lot of resources, and you don't want to be limited right off the bat by the amount of memory you have. Get something with at least 1 GigaByte of memory, preferably 2GB if you can afford it. A large external Firewire drive is also a must!

Hope this helps

[Hangfire]

Whew - Thanks Steve!

Tons of very useful info and I appreciate the fact that you have experience using both formats. I really thought about a mini mac and PT but I've got a feeling home recording is about all I need for the time being.
I'm concerned about the learning curve. Last time I was in a studio was 10 yrs. ago in L.A. We laid tracks down on two inch analog tape then had the master converted to digital for CD's and cassettes.

[pipelineaudio]

Steve pretty much hit it, but as many PT to REAPER converts have shown, DSP isnt an issue in most cases anymore. A dual core CPU has PLENTY of juice. The ancient DSP in the PTHD systems really arent that powerful.

Of course, a strong PC PLUS DSP gives you that much more, but its a bit apples and oranges. Most native apps have full, complete plugin delay compensation, no matter what the number, order or type of plugin. You will often see guys with PTHD systems not using the included DSP at all for this very reason.

The "compatibility" thing is a VERY strong argument for PT in the midrange of the market. You won't often see it at the very top, as the uber engineers are either computer haters or RADAR guys, though some will use PT also.

If you want to be compatible with a PT system, hit file/consolidate in reaper, and save the resulting waves to a disc, PT will load them right where theyre supposed to be

The other thing we are seeing, is PT guys rewiring into reaper to use offline rendering, which is a particular sore spot in PT. Also they rewire into reaper for more tracks when they run out (not applicable to HD/TDM systems)

[Erockrazor]

If the main concern is getting recording right away with a simple learning curve, Reaper is a better choice. Pro Tools doesn't have as friendly of an interface to learn on.

Then again, youre getting an answer in the Reaper forum. Lets go Reaper ch ch chchch.

[theblackBay]

I have Bagged Pro Tools

I have seen some recent interesting developments with the TCE Tool the auto loop timing tool and supposedly the full blown Beat detective.

also I hear in 7.4 there is meant to be a way to re-tempo "live" Audio with no apparent degradation of the sound quality I’ll believe it when I see it but. if they are going to do it with REX files I’d say they need a large improvement over what I’ve heard.

but hey?

Pro tools have some new an innovative features but it's overpriced.

but seeing these features maybe if one utilised these things a lot and they were lacking in other programs (which they are in some cases to degrees) it would be worth it.

for me there are more negatives than positives ATM with pro tools.

[theblackBay]

I just built a E6750 Intel system (moderate powered Dual core 2.6) with 2gig DDRII (moderate amount of Ram). on a PK5 Asus Motherboard; Good motherboard.

my average Track amount is always over 30 and i have not run out of Plug-in power yet and i mean some of these Plug-ins are "large" i almost feel guilty about being able to use so many plug-ins but as a result i can get the results in my scattered head down better.

it's all in the Bus speeds I have been saying it for years, literally we could have had these Bus speeds years ago they were held back in my opinion but I’m not complaining. we have them now. (Probably National security issues)

this system runs a 1066mhz ram bus and a 1333Mhz Front side bus on the Processor with a 4mb L2 Cache. (if you don’t understand that consider that for a long time most system have run 133mhz)

check the Bus on the DSP cards i'd say PCI bus speed for DSP is 33 Mhz maybe 66 Mhz.

having said that of course run both you get more, but then it becomes an argument about free market competition price verses proprietary benefit V cost ratio.

the "free" market wins.

Here’s a run down in rough Pounds for what I listed (doing this in my head)

2 gig of DDRII RAM from the States delivered 35 pounds
The motherboard Asus Pk5 – 50 pounds
The Processor – E6750 - ?? um what maybe 85 pounds?

Ok total price basis for “HD” DAW system (bare bones) (need case and Hard drives)

190 Pounds or so? maybe less?

[steve.h]

E6750 - $194.99
Asus Pk5 - Roughly $120
2x1gb ddr2 - $54
Cheapest video card - $29
Quiet Case - $50-100
Power Supply - $80
Hard Drive/s - $150
Monitor - $150
Keyboard/mouse - $30
CD/DVD drive - $30

So roughly $1000 including shipping. Not $180.

[IronFlippy]

Originally Posted by steve.h

E6750 - $194.99
Asus Pk5 - Roughly $120
2x1gb ddr2 - $54
Cheapest video card - $29
Quiet Case - $50-100
Power Supply - $80
Hard Drive/s - $150
Monitor - $150
Keyboard/mouse - $30
CD/DVD drive - $30

So roughly $1000 including shipping. Not $180.

Pounds and dollars are very different. Units are EVERYTHING. And he did say without case, monitor, etc. His price is not off.

While building your own computer has its benefits, I don't recommend it if you're not tech savvy. Tech support is the main issue here. When something goes wrong on your home built computer, there's no warranty backing it up. You either fix it yourself, or pay a computer specialist to fix it (big money).

For a stable system, I'd recommend just buying a Dell or other large manufacturer, wiping the hard drive (they ship with far too many extra programs and whatnot installed) and starting with a clean installation of windows (which is almost always included with the computer).

Since you're only using it for home recording, then Reaper is an excellent choice. Fantastic support over at the forums, and you can interact with the developer. If you find a bug and report it, it takes him literally a couple days at most to fix (depending on how much he is working on at the time, naturally). Have I mentioned how fast the program is? I absolutely love Reaper, it does exactly what I need it to do, and it does it extraordinarily well.

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

The ancient DSP in the PTHD systems really arent that powerful.

The chips in HD process cards are no more or less "ancient" than most other chip based musical products.

Pro Tools still holds it's place in the industry based on the power of these cards and in and of themselves still are a massive engine for driving DSP effects without out the help of native number crunching..

You can hate Pro Tools and that's okay but for the sake of those still not fully understanding where and how all this shakes out that is not a very accurate statement.

[pipelineaudio]

Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna

The chips in HD process cards are no more or less "ancient" than most other chip based musical products.

They are in fact ancient and slow when compared to a modern say pentium 3 or AMD athlon, and mere gnats compared to a Core 2 Duo

Pro Tools still holds it's place in the industry based on the power of these cards and in and of themselves still are a massive engine for driving DSP effects without out the help of native number crunching..

Without PDC, the very limited power of these DSP chips compared to native (with full PDC, unlimited slots, parallel chaining, and SMP), I wouldn't call that "massive" I'd call it "crippled"

You can hate Pro Tools and that's okay but for the sake of those still not fully understanding where and how all this shakes out that is not a very accurate statement.

You can strawman me and that's okay, but for the sake of those still not fully understanding where and how all this shakes out, my above is a perfectly accurate statement.

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

They are in fact ancient and slow when compared to a modern say pentium 3 or AMD athlon, and mere gnats compared to a Core 2 Duo

Naw you're comparing apples to oranges.

The chip sets on the HD cards have VIRTUALLY nothing to do with the chipset of a computer. They work ONLY "in addtion to". Their purpose (much like the chip in any hardware processor) has the sole responsibility of processing predetermined DSP effect algarithms. That of course not to mention that HD systems have at their diposal any pentium or athlon chip-set computer as well.

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Without PDC, the very limited power of these DSP chips compared to native (with full PDC, unlimited slots, parallel chaining, and SMP), I wouldn't call that "massive" I'd call it "crippled"

The HD 3 systems we use here at work are capable of hundreds of tracks and in some cases hundreds of simultaneous plug ins before it touches the CPU. How much more would one need and above all where lies the crippled antiquity in those numbers.

You're most likely correct about PDC. I find it hard to dispute that since I have NO idea what PDC is but.... having said that.... what would keep a PDC system from working with an HD rig?

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

You can strawman me and that's okay, but for the sake of those still not fully understanding where and how all this shakes out, my above is a perfectly accurate statement.

Naw in fact to the absolute contrary. I can definatively calculate both track count and plug in count based on a given formula for HD performance. There is no smoke... no mirror

[SRR]

Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna

You're most likely correct about PDC. I find it hard to dispute that since I have NO idea what PDC is but.... having said that.... what would keep a PDC system from working with an HD rig?

PDC=Plugin Delay Compensation does protools le have it? I hope so! I know HD has it, wonder why you don't know what it is???

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by SRR

I know HD has it, wonder why you don't know what it is???

HD architecture of course has delay compensation and nearly zero lactency when it comes to real time monitoring.

I've not ever heard it referred to as PDC as the code adjusts for more than plug-ins.

[pipelineaudio]

Last I checked HD's PDC was up to a certain amount per card, and a check of the DUC shows people pissed left and right when they run out. Thats when they rewire into a native app

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Last I checked HD's PDC was up to a certain amount per card

This is not correct. Pro Tools ADC is either off or toggled between handling compensation times of roughly 1100 milliseconds or 4100 milliseconds and is powered by a chip on the card. It is also across the entire session (every track). It has nothing to do with per card instantiations.

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

and a check of the DUC shows people pissed left and right when they run out.

As a frequent visitor of the DUC I don't recall a single thread that has EVER discussed running out of ADC. 4100 milliseconds is a life time of ADC. I suspect if there really was someone (after properly configuring the ADC) who still had gripes about ADC considering how much is available they, not Pro Tools, would be the sole source of the problem.

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Thats when they rewire into a native app

I can't think of a situation that I have ever heard of.....ever.. where a Pro Tools HD system had to be rewired into a native system of any caliber to correct delay compensation failures.

Time moves on and the new round of quad and 8 core Mac's are clearly changing the current DAW landscape. It is obviously possible to configure an extremely potent native based system that is more than capable and more than we could have dreamed of a few short years ago. That not to mention every manufacturer is seemingly writing pretty brilliant software to go along with them.

That said where Digidesign "Time Division Mutiplexing" architecture is perhaps numerically growing older.....still in all NOTHING is even remotely capable of handling audio as elegantly as an HD system.

The notion that the industries most demanding environments who still use HD are somehow bamboozled by Digidesign marketing is fool hearty. These are production studios with some of the brightest engineering talents in the world and where money (at least for equipment) is NO object. If there were a better,more efficient solution, those production environments would be the first to lighten their workload and migrate towards the light.

I'll say again there is nothing ancient about HD based systems.

[theblackBay]

if you consider a pound is over 2x your tanking dollar you will realise i overestimated.

all arguments aside $1500.00 v $50,000 for the same result ...again I’d say read the name of the forum.

if you have the production experience your result will be the same.

and just think AMD and Intel aren't going anywhere.. when real competition exist in this market do you think the trend of process power will be more power for less cost??.... lets look at the history……

yep…..more power less cost..lets all thank the gods of digitalindustry.

this spells obsolete for "more cost high power" systems because "they" the companies or corporations unfortunately no longer hold a monopoly on the "means of production".

the "means of production" has been handed to the happy human individual in the form of a soundcard a firewire or usb device and a DAW like Reaper or Cubase or any others.

and look what he is doing with it!

Independent music is now so large in it’s combined sum old Corp bands like Radiohead are breaking with their masters.
This could not happen without the internet or free market digital industrial technology.

so wake up every day and thank human(mostly) technology.

[IronFlippy]

Not to veer off topic, but wasn't delay compensation only added fairly recently to protools? Version 6 or so? You know, many years after nearly every other DAW had it? What does that say about the developers?

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by IronFlippy

Not to veer off topic, but wasn't delay compensation only added fairly recently to protools? Version 6 or so? You know, many years after nearly every other DAW had it? What does that say about the developers?

Yes..Pro Tools ADC was added 2 or 3 years ago.

What on Earth could the insinuation "what does that say about the developers?" mean???

Could it mean Digi's engineers are mean guys who like to screw with their customers recording world by intentionally withholding ADC? Probably not.
Perhaps they're programing skills "just ran out" sometime shortly after they wrote the primary TDM code.

Perhaps Digidesign no longer wishes to be in the DAW game and most of their code writers are either off to another company or on a beach drinking.
Maybe they're just plain dumb and can't figure out what ADC is.

The Digidesign conspiracy theory is at best sophomoric and shows a fundemental misunderstanding of both the software and the business in general.

The misleading part of your statement and another misunderstood but often held as an example wives-tale is: ADC
Many applications including DP, Cubase and Logic made various and sundry attempts over the years at implementing some form of ADC.

LOT'S of those attempts were very weak implementations and didn't work well at all. In fact the latest version of Logic 8 is still sans ANY outboard ADC. Flying the flag of ADC does not mean Pro Tools by it's exclusion is behind the game.

My frustration with all of this is not with anything being better or worse but the HORRENDOUS abuse of wives-tales bantered about as facts by some who simply DO NOT KNOW or even understand those statements proffered as facts.

[IronFlippy]

I am in no way saying that there's a conspiracy or anything with ProTools. It just seems that if a company has a program that is somewhat the industry standard, then the developers should be more on top of their "game".

ProTools is great, I have no objections to it. It's just not the DAW for me. Reaper does what I need it to, and I believe that the developer is more attuned to what the users are looking for. If ProTools was a bad system, then it's safe to say that it probably would not be as popular as it is today. But there's no such thing as the "perfect" DAW, it's very much subjective.

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by IronFlippy

I am in no way saying that there's a conspiracy or anything with ProTools. It just seems that if a company has a program that is somewhat the industry standard, then the developers should be more on top of their "game".

ProTools is great, I have no objections to it. It's just not the DAW for me. Reaper does what I need it to, and I believe that the developer is more attuned to what the users are looking for. If ProTools was a bad system, then it's safe to say that it probably would not be as popular as it is today. But there's no such thing as the "perfect" DAW, it's very much subjective.

Yep.... I absolutely agree with everything you say. That and as I've said sooo many other times Reaper and Logic and DP all give the Pro Tools developers great competition and that in the end is good for all of us.

My only caution here is understand the developers of Reaper are not more "in tune" with users as much as it's a small company that is VERY agile when it comes to changes in the software coding.

The core DAE code is fairly old and Digi has known for a long time they're gonna have to start over from scratch. That's a WHOLE lotta re-coding involving a massive amount of companies and a massive amount of plug-in re-writes. This will have to be done all the while not disrupting the GUI and any sonic issues Pro Tools is known for.

They'll get it done (they don't have a choice) but it'll require company shattering resources to do it.

As I've said before Digidesign is not dumb nor closed eared to it's users... it simply takes longer to turn a battleship around than it does a jet ski.

[pipelineaudio]

Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna

My only caution here is understand the developers of Reaper are not more "in tune" with users as much as it's a small company that is VERY agile when it comes to changes in the software coding.

I guess you have to define what you mean by "in tune with"

Let me know the next time digidesign codes in a new feature as requested by a user within 1/2 an hour of the request as has happened too many times to count in reaper. To me that means the company is responsive to the customer's needs.

I have been a PT owner since it was possible to be a PT owner, and after all these years I still don't have an option to see the contents of events while dragging them. Mouse wheel zoom? They don't listen.

Yes, REAPER's code is much smaller. Lets say reaper was missing half the features of PT (which it isnt). Even if it were to double in size it would still be WAY smaller and still use far far less CPU. But you are comparing a whole ton of semi-mediocre coders, possibly with a few good ones thrown in, against two EXTREMELY capable code jockeys. Its no suprise which one is going to be coded better.

PT was almost 10 years behind the jump to 96khz compared to native. But they have very good reasons, stability, safety, and keeping users from getting into trouble. These are smart, sensible things to do, but to say it doesnt make them "ancient"? I think it does. I mean for a while there they werent just a *little* behind, they were like Amish buggies getting passed by corvettes

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Yes, REAPER's code is much smaller. Lets say reaper was missing half the features of PT (which it isnt). Even if it were to double in size it would still be WAY smaller and still use far far less CPU. But you are comparing a whole ton of semi-mediocre coders, possibly with a few good ones thrown in, against two EXTREMELY capable code jockeys. Its no suprise which one is going to be coded better.

Naw I didn't make my point clear...... my bad.

I don't have a clue as to which code may or may not be bigger. I'm talking about the "companies" overall ability to make stop on a dime changes. Avid is simply to big of a company to negotiate those type of waters.

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

after all these years I still don't have an option to see the contents of events while dragging them. Mouse wheel zoom? They don't listen.

Again the DAE architecture has needed an overhaul for a long time and nobody is more aware and concerned about it than Digi. As I said earlier they will make that Titanic hurdle but it will be a hugh re-write and there is a decade of third party developers with their products well being on the line. This does not make Digi the bad guys...lots and lots at stake

If Digidesign decided to make a code change within 30 minutes of receiving it where would that put the Avid folks and the many third party developers who's livelihood depends on it and the hundreds of post production facilities that require a more stable product rather than one with lots of new user requests.

The uniqueness of Reaper and it's small company approach is simply wonderful and NO other company can offer that level of service.

It is consumer positive that Reaper can be that responsive to their user base. That said they could not continue to make those maneuvers if they where a company the size of Avid.

Nothing but praise for Reaper and their users and as I've tried to establish this software is nothing but good for all of us. That does not make Digidesign the big evil mad monster in comparison.

Apples to oranges.