Odd Paul

[apl]

A friend of mine bought a guitar in a pawn shop for $500. It comes in a pink gatorskin case. The guitar is white. The neck, pups, and headstock say Gibson Les Paul just like you'd expect on a Paul. It's a double cutaway, but not like a Pro. It looks like they took an SG pattern and laid it on top of a Paul body blank (can't tell if it's maple on mahogany) so it's got the sharper horns. The body edges are beveled kinda like an SG, too. But the body has the thickness of a Paul and the neck-body joint is Paulish, too.

Any ideas what this is?

[lpdeluxe]

It's the '61 SG style LP, probably. Whether it's a real old one (and worth a bit more than $500) or not is the question. Gibson has a "dating" service on their website, but it's not always reliable, especially for the Norlin years.

That model was never anywhere near as popular as the Les Paul Standard, so it can be hard to find information. I think they were mahogany, as a rule, which is lighter than maple/mahogany (my Deluxe is a real boat anchor), but some were made of ash, if I remember.

They actually predated the SG itself. Reportedly, Gibson was unhappy with the sales of the LP Standard, so did the SG makeover...which sold even less.

The SG/LP was available as a Standard, with two humbuckers, a crown inlay on the peghead, bound rosewood fingerboard, and the usual four-knob LP wiring and tunamatic bridge.

There was a Junior, without the fingerboard binding and with a wrap-around bridge tailpiece, and has a decal with "Les Paul Junior" on the headstock.

The Custom had three pickups and gold trim, otherwise similar to the Standard.

These models were sold from 1961-63. Reissues were sold 87-92, but the serial number will tell you which series it came from. From 100 to 70,000s were issued in the early sixties, but I don't have any numbers for the later ones. Gibson's website should help you out there.

[apl]

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

The SG/LP was available as a Standard, with two humbuckers, a crown inlay on the peghead, bound rosewood fingerboard, and the usual four-knob LP wiring and tunamatic bridge.

The Custom had three pickups and gold trim, otherwise similar to the Standard.

Hmmmm. Interesting, thanks. I wanna say the headstock said Custom but it had two pups. I'll have to look at it again.

[lpdeluxe]

It's probably not unheard of for LP/SG Customs to have 2 pickups, but it would have gold hardware (or, given my experience with gold-plating, what was once gold before it wore off).

I see there was a "30th Anniversary" version in 91-92, but it was yellow.

The fact is that Gibson didn't always adhere to their own product specs. There are lots of semi-mutts out there, especially among the easily-modified solid bodies, that are factory original, and might have been one-offs or a dealer custom order. Come to think of it, Gibson was fond of sticking "Custom" on special orders.

I think the best way to proceed is to look here:
http://www.gibson.com/en%2Dus/Suppor...lNumberSearch/

[MadAudio]

Originally Posted by apl

Hmmmm. Interesting, thanks. I wanna say the headstock said Custom but it had two pups. I'll have to look at it again.

Any way you can take a camera with you? I think we'd all like to see it.

[BrentDomann]

Originally Posted by apl

But the body has the thickness of a Paul

I would think this rules out any SG discussion. Am I missing something?

[lpdeluxe]

The SG shape started out as a Les Paul model. Although Mr Paul himself played them, he didn't like them, and in 1963 ended his endorsement deal. Thereupon Gibson renamed it the SG.

They aren't laminated (mahogany/maple) like the original series of LP: they are solid mahogany.

[ez_willis]

So what does SG stand for?

[lpdeluxe]

The best guess is "Solid Guitar" but Gibson never actually said.

[capnkid]

I'd buy and sg if they were about 1/2 inch thicker. I loved the neck on the one I tried.

[MadAudio]

Originally Posted by ez_willis

So what does SG stand for?

Super Groovy.

[lpdeluxe]

A guy here in town had one that was gloss natural blond mahogany from the '80s. I've always lusted after that guitar.

[Anfontan]

Hey Arvo-did the Les Paul look like the one in my attachment?

A good friend had a nice collection of Les Pauls years ago-an Ebony one called the fretless wonder, I can't recall the exact model but that was the nickname-A Les Paul Standard with the mini-humbuckers-an early 60's model that resembled the attached picture-and a 53 Goldtop that was in beautiful shape.
The Standard with the Mini-buckers was his favorite though, he really loved the extra high end the pickup had.

[apl]

Originally Posted by Anfontan

Hey Arvo-did the Les Paul look like the one in my attachment?

No, it looked more like a Deluxe with a thick SG body.

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by capnkid

I'd buy and sg if they were about 1/2 inch thicker. I loved the neck on the one I tried.

There is a lot of variability in SG necks. A friend of mine has a 70's vintage one with a neck like a telephone pole.

[Unsprung]

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

The SG shape started out as a Les Paul model. Although Mr Paul himself played them, he didn't like them, and in 1963 ended his endorsement deal. Thereupon Gibson renamed it the SG.

They aren't laminated (mahogany/maple) like the original series of LP: they are solid mahogany.

From what I understood of the story, Les Paul never played one. He'd seen the new design "Les Paul" in a guitar store window, and was so incensed by what he saw, he was ready to go to Gibson to end his endorsement deal. In order to avoid a nasty situation, they simply changed the name to SG.

Matt

[apl]

It does have three pickups. The s/n starts with 014...

[lpdeluxe]

Unsprung, I had read that. I think Mary Ford played one (it was a bit lighter than the original LP -- she had a gold top with flowers on the pickguard, previously). I remember seeing her with it in a photo, which is not the same thing as actually playing the thing.

It's astonishing, in hindsight, that one of the two iconic electric guitars (along with the Strat) was perceived as unpopular, but then, Gibson built 1712 LPs over three years (1958-60) and that's chicken feed compared with how many they crank out now. There seems to be 1712 variations on 'em, at least.

These figures come from A R Duchossoir's Gibson Electrics.

In comparison, Gibson sold as many of the original Les Pauls (1736) in 1952 alone; for the three years 1952-4 the shipping total was 5565 just for the Standard (excluding the Custom, Junior and TV models).

These numbers were high in relation to the traditional archtops, but the solid bodies required much less hand work and finishing.

An 014XXX serial number would make it a 1961 at the earliest. In 1960 they were still using the 0-XXXX ("0" for the last digit of "1960").

So it's no wonder that Gibson modified the original, which wasn't selling. Once the LP/SG was introduced, the total jumped from 635 in 1960 to 1662 the next year for the Standard and from 189 to 513 for the Custom. These numbers are a mix of original and SG style, since Gibson changed over during the year, but it must have seemed to them that they had done the right thing. I don't have 1962 figures.

[lpdeluxe]

From A R Duchossoir's Guitar Identification:

Gibson Solid Body Serial Numbers 1961-1969 [I have excluded the years after the Les Paul name was discontinued]

Sequence Year
100-42440 1961
42441-61180 1962
61450-64222 1963

[lpdeluxe]

Unsprung, I had read that. I think Mary Ford played one (it was a bit lighter than the original LP -- she had a gold top with flowers on the pickguard, previously). I remember seeing her with it in a photo, which is not the same thing as actually playing the thing.

It's astonishing, in hindsight, that one of the two iconic electric guitars (along with the Strat) was perceived as unpopular, but then, Gibson built 1712 LPs over three years (1958-60) and that's chicken feed compared with how many they crank out now. There seems to be 1712 variations on 'em, at least.

These figures come from A R Duchossoir's Gibson Electrics.

In comparison, Gibson sold as many of the original Les Pauls (1736) in 1952 alone; for the three years 1952-4 the shipping total was 5565 just for the Standard (excluding the Custom, Junior and TV models).

These numbers were high in relation to the traditional archtops, but the solid bodies required much less hand work and finishing.

So it's no wonder that Gibson modified the original, which wasn't selling. Once the LP/SG was introduced, the total jumped from 635 in 1960 to 1662 the next year for the Standard and from 189 to 513 for the Custom. These numbers are a mix of original and SG style, since Gibson changed over during the year, but it must have seemed to them that they had done the right thing. I don't have 1962 figures.