Harsh cymbals

[mrhotapples]

Does anyone have any tips for setting up spaced pair overheads with LDCs to soften cymbals? I usually set them up equidistant from the snare about a foot off the cymbals, pointed straight down, but when a drummer really smashes a brighter cymbal, it comes out harsh and ear-tearing. It doesn't sound like distortion, and I can help it with EQ, but I'm wondering how everyone goes about using this technique and any knowledge they may be able to impart.

would backing the mics off another foot or setting them up in front of the kit rather than above it help out? Is there anything anyone might be able to suggest to do to the cymbals to calm their highs down?

I'm using CAD M177s and I record mostly metal...Usually the artificial, trigger-laden variety.

Any tips would be much appreciated.

[Dani Pace]

I was having the same type of problem, did 2 things that helped a lot. One, I moved the oh mics back about even with or just behind the drummers head (imaginary line straight across) and out just a little. Then I added a cloud over the drums. I can't say which of the two did the most to tame the cymbals but both together helped to soften the harshness for me. Additional benefit... the cloud also helped to cut back some boominess in my room.

[TexRoadkill]

Tell the drummer not hit the cymbals so hard.
Treat the room.
Move the mics to wherever it sounds good.

[leddy]

Does it have to be LDC'S? Have any ribbon mics?

Beyerdynamic M160 and/or M130's (a pair of either or one of each in mid-side) will take out the harsh and replace it with cream.

I've never used any of the Chinese ribbons, but they might work too.

[The Axis]

DUMP THE LDC!
LDC almost always have accentuated highs, to make human vocals sound "crisp" and "breathy".....but they also greatly enhance the overtones of acoustic instruments, making them sound tinny and harsh.

A small diameter condenser OR DYNAMIC will really make the cymbals, and EVERYTHING, sound much more lifelike.

[xstatic]

Even more than changing the mics out, I think that moving a little higher will help. 1 foot off the cymbals seems VERY close.

[Dogman]

My OH's are about 4 feet from my cymbals...up above and back a little.

[mrhotapples]

I've gotta use LDCs because I've got no other option. I have M177s and MXL990s. I've been considering buying some ribbons when I have the money to, but I'm trying to save money. I have 1 inch 703 on my ceiling, so I think that should be attenuating high frequencies enough. It's probably that the mics are just too close. Thanks guys.

[SeventhHeaven]

You'll find that you get a much more pleasing sound from the OH's if you apply a low-shelf EQ to both overheads.
Get rid of all the bottom end and mids from the OH's - slide the shelving point up until you hear that the cymbals start sounding crisp and airy - and you're there.

This assumes of course that the rest of the kit has close mics. This will also eliminate most, if not all of the odd phasing problems with the OH's and the close mics. There is almost always SOME phasing issue.

I've had better luck using X-Y coincident pairs for the overheads also, which gave a very natural stereo soundscape.

Good luck.

SH

[mrface2112]

a couple thoughts:

#1 are the cymbals crappy? nothing's worse than trying to record crappy sounding cymbals that are getting punished by a neanderthal behind the kit. cheap cymbals = crappy cymbal recordings.

#2 move the mics as high as you can.

#3 treat the room some more. 1in of 703 on the ceiling is a good start......but you need more like 4in to really make a difference. what's the treatment on the walls and around the kit like?

#4 experiment with using the mics in front of the kit rather than overhead. you can get an excellent L/R image in front. nothing says you need to have "overheads".

essentially, +1 to what TexRoadkill said.


cheers,
wade

[mrhotapples]

I'm in a garage with two concrete walls, a door and one plasterboard wall. I have very minimal wall treatment. Does anyone have any kind of tips for making a cloud without framing? I realize my 1 inch is doing SOMETHING but I know that with a little work I can make everything a lot better.

[mrface2112]

Originally Posted by mrhotapples

I'm in a garage with two concrete walls, a door and one plasterboard wall. I have very minimal wall treatment.

fixing the nasty reflections you're sure to get off those walls will go a LOT farther towards taming the cymbals than changing mics, etc.

i mean, if you can't adequately treat them with 703/traps/etc.....then at least hang comforters, packing blankets, heavy curtains, or something on those walls.

as for a cloud without frames, you can simply tack 703 to the wall and cover it with felt. that's about as simple as you're gonna get. it won't look great, but it's cheap and effective.


cheers,
wade

[mrhotapples]

Yeah, but that's where I'm headed right now; I'd like to be able to save on fiberglass and get an air gap.

[xstatic]

Originally Posted by SeventhHeaven

You'll find that you get a much more pleasing sound from the OH's if you apply a low-shelf EQ to both overheads.
Get rid of all the bottom end and mids from the OH's - slide the shelving point up until you hear that the cymbals start sounding crisp and airy - and you're there.

This assumes of course that the rest of the kit has close mics. This will also eliminate most, if not all of the odd phasing problems with the OH's and the close mics. There is almost always SOME phasing issue.

I've had better luck using X-Y coincident pairs for the overheads also, which gave a very natural stereo soundscape.

Good luck.

SH

I do the opposite with my overheads. More often I end up leaving the lows up and shaving the highs. I also like compressing them with nice comps at the tracking phase. I like the overheads and kick to sound good as a whole, then I add in the other mics. I still rely alot on the close mics, but I do not have to make sacrifices at the overheads either.

[SeventhHeaven]

Originally Posted by xstatic

I do the opposite with my overheads. More often I end up leaving the lows up and shaving the highs. I also like compressing them with nice comps at the tracking phase. I like the overheads and kick to sound good as a whole, then I add in the other mics. I still rely alot on the close mics, but I do not have to make sacrifices at the overheads either.

Sure- it depends if the setup has individual close mics on the cymbals - if so, the OH's can be used as quasi-distance mics for filling out the sound more.
This is definitely a set-up dependant YMMV situation.

If you do not have individual cymbal mics (or dedicated cymbal mics), the only place you can get that warm high end sheen from the cymbals is from the OH's. (or you have a really bad leakage issue!)

I tend to use the OH's as cymbal mics when there aren't enough mics to mic everything individually.

In any event, regardless of setup, if you can identify which mics are responsible for the harshness, try to find the offending frequency range, and EQ it down.

Room treatment and cymbals are great, but I've been witness to some STELLAR sounding recordings in far less than ideal conditions when the engineer knows how to get what he wants with what he's got.

[xstatic]

Sorry man. I never mic individaul cymbals except hi hat and the occasional under ride mic. By keeping a spaced pair about 4 to 5 feet above the snare I have no problem getting good cymbal sounds and drum sounds.

[SeventhHeaven]

Originally Posted by xstatic

Sorry man. I never mic individaul cymbals except hi hat and the occasional under ride mic. By keeping a spaced pair about 4 to 5 feet above the snare I have no problem getting good cymbal sounds and drum sounds.

No question - Just relating that in my own experience, I have just never found that nasty harshness in the high top end - usually find it around 4-6K region, unless I have a phasing issue.

YMMV

[gemsbok]

Originally Posted by The Axis

DUMP THE LDC!
LDC almost always have accentuated highs, to make human vocals sound "crisp" and "breathy".....but they also greatly enhance the overtones of acoustic instruments, making them sound tinny and harsh.

A small diameter condenser OR DYNAMIC will really make the cymbals, and EVERYTHING, sound much more lifelike.

your never gonna get thick meaty hats or smack whack snare sounds with those little pencil mic thingies. stay with the large d mics and work on placement unless your doing jazz or something.

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by mrface2112

cheap cymbals = crappy cymbal recordings.

Very true. The one investment that will go the furthest towards the goal of smoothening out the sound of the cymbals on the drum kit ... is the purchase of some smooth-sounding cymbals. Just like with anything else ... garbage in is garbage out X 3.

Get a set of Custom K Darks / Dark & Crisp ... and listen to the cymbal nasties go away pretty quick.

.

[warble2]

Originally Posted by The Axis

DUMP THE LDC!
LDC almost always have accentuated highs, to make human vocals sound "crisp" and "breathy".....but they also greatly enhance the overtones of acoustic instruments, making them sound tinny and harsh.

A small diameter condenser OR DYNAMIC will really make the cymbals, and EVERYTHING, sound much more lifelike.

With his M177's, accentuated highs really wouldn't be an issue. I've used M177's as OH's, and was pleased with the results. What dynamics would make the cymbals or EVERYTHING much more lifelike sounding? Interesting - at least in the case of OH's.

I think maybe in this case I'd focus on mic placement, better cymbals and/or the old room treatment.

[Micter]

I use LDC'c as OH's all the time. C414's, AT 4033's, GT55's, etc. The M177's as OH mics isn't the problem. It's most likely the cymbals and/or the room.

[Sonixx]

Originally Posted by chessrock

Get a set of Custom K Darks / Dark & Crisp ... and listen to the cymbal nasties go away pretty quick

+1 also Custom K Fast Crash. thinner and darker are better suited and what may sound too thin for live is probably good for recording.

[mrhotapples]

I'm doing a drum recording today, so I'll see if just getting the mics higher will help.

[charger]

Originally Posted by mrhotapples

Does anyone have any tips for setting up spaced pair overheads with LDCs to soften cymbals? I usually set them up equidistant from the snare about a foot off the cymbals, pointed straight down, but when a drummer really smashes a brighter cymbal, it comes out harsh and ear-tearing. It doesn't sound like distortion, and I can help it with EQ, but I'm wondering how everyone goes about using this technique and any knowledge they may be able to impart.

All I can say is, 1 foot above the cymbals? wow! Mine are like 5 feet off, and I wish they were higher, but I don't have one of those fancy weighted boom stands.

[mattamatta]

I record drums with M179's in cardioid, and never find harshness to be a problem. I usually end up putting them out in front of the set, almost more like room mics than overheads. Although the cymbals and drummer I usually record never seem to get harsh, so I don't have to deal with that.