Is this right for XY pattern?

[Myriad_Rocker]

You can't tell but it's about right over the snare pointing down.

Comments/suggestions welcome.

As far as other mics...

Kick In: AKG D112
Kick Out: AT4033
Snare Top: Audix i5
Snare Btm: Shure SM57
8" Tom: Audix D2
10" Tom: Audix D2
12" Tom: Audix D4
14" Tom: Audix D4
16" Tom: Audix D6

The mics on the hats and ride are for augmenting samples into the sound. They won't be used otherwise. I'm also thinking of putting a D2 on the 12" and a D4 on the 16".

I also still have to put up the treatment in the room, which isn't complete yet. It's movable so I can easily put it up. Also, the mics are up but aren't plugged in...just in case anyone wants to be a smart ass...

[blueroommusic]

...IMO, if you are playing rock, metal, heavy music, etc (which I could assume from your kit)....the D6 would be much better suited inside the kick than the D112. That's about my .02

[ez_willis]

Good looking kit. I'm the last one to give advice about micing a kit, so I'll leave it at that.

[Micter]

Personally, I would separate the OH's

[jrhager84]

Yeah, I'm thinking of changing my X/Y configuration as well. It's set up the same way as yours right now, and I'm not getting a very good stereo image. Guess I need to buy another stand....dammit!

[leddy]

In case you have not done this, I would suggest reading up on the major stereo mic techniques so you can understand the pros and cons each of coincident, near-coincident and spaced. Here's an article:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/studyhall...techniques.php

I would make some sample recordings of each one so you can hear the differences in your room and decide what you like.

In the picture, your mics look a little less than 90 degrees. If you go with XY, I'd open them wider.

I'd also go with no more than 4 mics - preferably 2 or 3, but that's just me. I really think that working with fewer mics forces you to to put more thought behind placement, and yields a much more natural recording.

(Warning, personal rant) I cringe when I read about stopping hi-hat bleed in the snare mic or putting several mics on the snare. A drum kit is one instrument, not several little ones. It's the player's job to balance the kit. (Rant over, sorry)

[leddy]

Originally Posted by jrhager84

Yeah, I'm thinking of changing my X/Y configuration as well. It's set up the same way as yours right now, and I'm not getting a very good stereo image.

Try a spaced pair or ORTF over the kit and nothing else. Get the mics as close as you can while maintaining accurate image and balance (and not getting the mics whacked by the drummer). Add a bass drum mic and a snare mic if you really feel you need to (make sure you check it in mono too). If you can't make this sound really good, don't add any more mics - it will only make it worse.

[Myriad_Rocker]

How would I avoid phase issues when using a spaced pair? I thought about using the spaced pair but I sure don't want phase or washy sound.

Also, when using spaced pair...based on my picture, where would be the ideal places to put the microphones? The snare is not in the middle of the kit. The drummer plays with it on the right (audience perspective). So the snare would would arrive at the right mic faster than the left mic...

[leddy]

Originally Posted by Myriad_Rocker

How would I avoid phase issues when using a spaced pair? I thought about using the spaced pair but I sure don't want phase or washy sound.

You move mics and listen, and you check it in mono. It's not difficult. Lots of people use spaced pairs successfully for lots of things.

Originally Posted by Myriad_Rocker

Also, when using spaced pair...based on my picture, where would be the ideal places to put the microphones? The snare is not in the middle of the kit. The drummer plays with it on the right (audience perspective). So the snare would would arrive at the right mic faster than the left mic...

Possible Options:

a) The snare does not HAVE to be center (I'd be more concerned about the bass drum).

b) Move the mics so the snare IS in the center (see "Recorderman" variation of spaced pair as a possible solution)

c) Imagine a line between the bass drum and snare (parallel with the floor). Make that line your "center". Position the pair so that they are equal distance on either side of the line and at the same height. That should keep the bass and snare in the middle. Generally, that means one mic is more towards the front and the other towards the back. So what. It's a recording, not a photograph.

On positioning:

First, move the kit away from the wall. Treated or not, get away from the wall. The picture looks like the mics are closer to the wall than they are the kit. That could sound really bad.

Next, you have to experiment. It's much harder to learn how to ride a bike if you're not on it.

Edit: One more thing -
Make sure you listen to the drums live in the room and compare that with the recording. I'll wager that 9 times out of 10 they sound pretty close, and when you are unhappy with a recorded sound it's because the instrument really sounds like that, at least in that room with that player. Most folks don't have the luxury of recording REALLY good musicians who have a REALLY good sound. It makes recording much easier.

[Myriad_Rocker]

Originally Posted by leddy

Imagine a line between the bass drum and snare (parallel with the floor). Make that line your "center". Position the pair so that they are equal distance on either side of the line and at the same height. That should keep the bass and snare in the middle. Generally, that means one mic is more towards the front and the other towards the back. So what. It's a recording, not a photograph.

Good suggestion. I'll use that one for sure. It won't change the cymbal position it sounds like, so that's good.

Originally Posted by leddy

First, move the kit away from the wall. Treated or not, get away from the wall. The picture looks like the mics are closer to the wall than they are the kit. That could sound really bad.

That wall looks a lot closer than it actually is...there's a good amount of space back there.

[jrhager84]

The best case scenario is to have the drums in pretty much the middle of the room though. Not to jack your thread because I think this pertains to you as well:

Should I put diffusers on my ceiling to break up the sound because I have a reflective surface and they're parallel? Maybe you could benefit from this as well. maybe not, maybe I'm stupid LOL

-Joel

[jaybriggs84]

How high is your ceiling?

[xstatic]

First off, if you go with the XY configuration, I would center the pair around the kit more. The way it looks to me right now, the whole image will be pretty shifted.

Second, if you do space the pair out, I would not worry about the location of the snare. I would center the pair around the kit as a whole. Phasing will happen no matter what, but it happens acoustically when you listen to a kit as well. Try moving them around a bit both horizontally and vertically to see what you do and don't like. Don't worry if the snare sits a touch heavier to one side in the OH image. The snare mic itslef can be panned to offset that.

Third, Leddy obviously likes the minimalist approach to drum micing. On occasion I like that as well. However, that kind of approach requires a few thigns to be really succesfull. First, good mics. Second a good room. Third (probably the most critical in this list) is a drummer that understands how their tuning and hardware selction and placement affects things like this and understands how their technique may have to change to make this scenario work to its best. If however you are recording a rock band that wants those rock and roll drum sounds with the big huge kick and a cracking snare and chunky deep toms, the two mic approach will not get you where you want. In fact, it probably would not work with this desired result even if all of the other factors fell into place.

[leddy]

Originally Posted by xstatic

First off, if you go with the XY configuration, I would center the pair around the kit more. The way it looks to me right now, the whole image will be pretty shifted.

Second, if you do space the pair out, I would not worry about the location of the snare. I would center the pair around the kit as a whole. Phasing will happen no matter what, but it happens acoustically when you listen to a kit as well. Try moving them around a bit both horizontally and vertically to see what you do and don't like. Don't worry if the snare sits a touch heavier to one side in the OH image. The snare mic itslef can be panned to offset that.

Third, Leddy obviously likes the minimalist approach to drum micing. On occasion I like that as well. However, that kind of approach requires a few thigns to be really succesfull. First, good mics. Second a good room. Third (probably the most critical in this list) is a drummer that understands how their tuning and hardware selction and placement affects things like this and understands how their technique may have to change to make this scenario work to its best. If however you are recording a rock band that wants those rock and roll drum sounds with the big huge kick and a cracking snare and chunky deep toms, the two mic approach will not get you where you want. In fact, it probably would not work with this desired result even if all of the other factors fell into place.

To be fair, my point was that if you can't make a pair of OH's and maybe a snare and bass drum mic sound good, adding more mics is probably a bad idea. Pretty much what I wrote. I stand behind that. By most accounts, Bonzo had a pretty minimalist set-up in the studio, no?

Saying it's ok to not worry about the image in your OH's because you can still pan things around with the individual mics scares me a little.

But hey, it's only recording. No big deal.

[jrhager84]

My ceiling is VERY low (maybe 8-9ft). I'm not sure how high this guy's ceiling is, but how low should a ceiling be before diffusers are considered?

[RAMI]

Have you tried the Recordman method. I do it with 4 mics and I often have to NARROW the pannig on my overheads because it's too wide. I have a 7.5 foot ceiling, but my room is pretty well treated, too.

[Myriad_Rocker]

Well, I did some test recording after I put up the mics, set up the treatment and messed around with the DAW checking levels. Being on the second floor while the drums are downstairs can be strange...especially when all you have to work with is the bass player! The talkback mic saved the day as far as communication.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with the way things turned out. I just tested the OH's, kick, and snare mics today. Everything sounded pretty good. The levels could have been higher but I was trying my best to keep them low enough to be workable later on. I think I'm going to try the spaced pair tomorrow because the XY just didn't seem wide enough to me.

As for my ceiling in that room, it's not all that high. Probably 9ft, maybe 10ft. Higher than most ceilings maybe. Now, the living room ceilings are crazy high. I would guess about 20ft. But the wife would go crazy if I had the drums set up in the middle of the living room for as long as it takes to record them.

As for treatment, I made some stands out of PVC pipe and got some thick blankets and hung them over the stands. I kind of made a room in a room with them. Additionally, I put up some Auralex on top of the ceiling fan blades to make kind of a "cloud" over the drums. Bass traps here and there...big sofa.

[xstatic]

Leddy, I agree with the making a kick and overheads sound good. In fact, I even led to that in my post. However, I went on to mention that for certain drum sounds, which are very common, this method will not give the desired results. You should also re-read my post because you have taken some serious liberty with its context. I never said that you could just place the overheads anywhere and not worry about due to individual mic panning.

Also, as far as the Bonham stuff goes.... remember there were also incredible mics used, incredible rooms, and a very specific drum sound that works great for that, but not for a lot of things. Most drummers love the Bonham sound, but don't want it for themselves. It's all about context.

[leddy]

Originally Posted by xstatic

Leddy, I agree with the making a kick and overheads sound good. In fact, I even led to that in my post. However, I went on to mention that for certain drum sounds, which are very common, this method will not give the desired results. You should also re-read my post because you have taken some serious liberty with its context. I never said that you could just place the overheads anywhere and not worry about due to individual mic panning.

You're right, I exaggerated a bit. Sorry.

[SeventhHeaven]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this already, and you probably already know this, but you'll likely have to reverse the phase on the Kick mic.

If not, your kick will wash out when mixed with the OH's

[Myriad_Rocker]

Originally Posted by SeventhHeaven

Not sure if anyone mentioned this already, and you probably already know this, but you'll likely have to reverse the phase on the Kick mic.

If not, your kick will wash out when mixed with the OH's

Yep, already thought of that. Also flipping the phase on the bottom snare mic.

[xstatic]

If it were me, I would listen carefully to the kick mic both in phase and out of phase. Your kick mic will always be "out of phase" when dealing with overheads. Whether or not it sounds better in and out of phase is dependent on many other things not barring personal preference. I recomend always listening carefully before just reversing the polarity of a mic. Sometimes it sounds better when double micing a snare to reverse the polarity o the top mic instead of the bottom. Sometimes it sounds good to not reverse either mic. The point is, I would not blindly do it, but listen and think about why you are doing it and also about why you might not want to.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by xstatic

If it were me, I would listen carefully to the kick mic both in phase and out of phase. Your kick mic will always be "out of phase" when dealing with overheads. Whether or not it sounds better in and out of phase is dependent on many other things not barring personal preference. I recomend always listening carefully before just reversing the polarity of a mic. Sometimes it sounds better when double micing a snare to reverse the polarity o the top mic instead of the bottom. Sometimes it sounds good to not reverse either mic. The point is, I would not blindly do it, but listen and think about why you are doing it and also about why you might not want to.

That's great advice. Your kik MIGHT need to be flipped, but so MIGHT your snare. Or not. I've done many tracks where I didn't have to flip anything.

[ez_willis]

Originally Posted by xstatic

The point is, I would not blindly do it, but listen and think about why you are doing it and also about why you might not want to.

This should apply to more than just the kick/OH phase relationship, such as all things audio.