Hooking up an external mixing board to my 4 track cassette

[analog aaron]

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Hey Guys , How would I connect an external mixing board to my 4 track cassette portastudio? I like to use an external mixer because each channel has preamps and better a better eq than that of the provided mixer on the 4 track. Also, would I still need to use the 4 track to do anything else other than pressing record on it (once the mixer is hooked up)?

[cusebassman]

What is the model of mixer and Portastudio you have?

[MCI2424]

Originally Posted by analog aaron

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Hey Guys , How would I connect an external mixing board to my 4 track cassette portastudio? I like to use an external mixer because each channel has preamps and better a better eq than that of the provided mixer on the 4 track. Also, would I still need to use the 4 track to do anything else other than pressing record on it (once the mixer is hooked up)?

You might want to visit the Analog Only Forum where they have a great misunderstanding of how to do this. Some of the dopes there can tell you the wrong way for sure.

Check out the pathetic thread where I posted some stuff about how to do this.

Then...
You need a way to bypass the porta-studio's pre-amps/EQ. Some have it, others don't. The model of porta-studio has to be known to find out.

[analog aaron]

I tried the Analog only section and some ass-hat told me to write some where else. The model of 4 track is the original Tascam 488 8track cassette. I'd also maybe like to use my Fostex 260 4 track if possible.
A

[MCI2424]

Originally Posted by analog aaron

I tried the Analog only section and some ass-hat told me to write some where else. The model of 4 track is the original Tascam 488 8track cassette. I'd also maybe like to use my Fostex 260 4 track if possible.
A

Yep. They are a handfull of know-nothings.

I am not really familiar with that deck, But, look here:
http://homerecording.com/tas488tips.html
http://homerecording.com/tas488specs.html

MAYBE there is some info. You are trying to go directly to each track on the recorder using either the channel inserts (line return, bypassing the pre-amp and better yet post EQ) or better yet, buss inserts (bypassing the whole channel). You would really have to see the schematic to choose the best route as the manuals never really tell you how to do this.

Good Luck. I will look for some more info.

[analog aaron]

Cool. I'll check it out. I'll see what I can learn from it. I'm still a little new to recording. Thanks so much!
Aaron

[TimOBrien]

How to hook up a mixer to a soundcard:

http://www.tweakheadz.com/how_to_hookup_a_mixer.htm

[sweetnubs]

Are there inserts on the tascam?

[Dani Pace]

It's simple, from the line out on the mixer to an input on the recorder (two inputs if it is a stereo mixer) then adjust the recorder settings and record as normal. I use a Yamaha MT 120 cassette recorder when writing and working out individual song parts and often use an external mixer to be able to use more than 4 mics at once. Most of the guys (and gals) around here are down on cassette recorders, digital has more options to work with and for many is more practical. I use mine mostly for recording in locations where I don't want to drag my PC out to, I'm sure a laptop with recording software and the right audio inputs would be more practical but for the present I don't have one so for now I use my cassette and upload to my PC. Cassette recorders wont give you the high quality recordings like the pro studios can but they do still have some usefullness, and they are simple and easy to use. Keep the heads clean, record on the highest (fastest) tape setting, use Cr02 tapes (high bias tape if you can't find Cr02) use good mics and have fun.

[analog aaron]

I'm sure most are down on cassette multitrackers. Afterall it's not the greatest form of analog recording. That's ok though, I'm not too fond of digital recording myself.... The sound of tape is sweeter to MY ears. I have a laptop and have recorded some stuff on it and wasn't happy with the results......... Anyways with all that said, I'm going to be using my cassette 8track for smaller easier projects and my 8track reel to reel for bigger projects. I know how to hook up the reel to reel to a mixng board. I'm only askng about the 8 track cassette because it is not set up like the reel to reel. As you know it has it's own mixer on it (but i'm not wanting to use that portion) I don't want to the preamps on the input channels of the recorder to interfere with the preamps from the channels on my board. I believe the multitracker has 8 regular 1/4" jack type inputs, and 2 effect effect sends. It also has 4 rca tape outputs on it. So I'd connect the line outs of the mixer to 2 tracks on the recorder ,and just leave the settings centered?
A

[MCI2424]

Originally Posted by sweetnubs

Are there inserts on the tascam?

Good question. I got banned from the Analog Only section trying to instruct those fools on using the insert returns to bypass the pre-amps and EQ properly. Apparently, they are as stupid as it gets.

[sweetnubs]

[QUOTE=Dani Pace;2761785]It's simple, from the line out on the mixer to an input on the recorder (two inputs if it is a stereo mixer) then adjust the recorder settings and record as normal. I use a Yamaha MT 120 cassette recorder when writing and working out individual song parts and often use an external mixer to be able to use more than 4 mics at once. Most of the guys (and gals) around here are down on cassette recorders, digital has more options to work with and for many is more practical. I use mine mostly for recording in locations where I don't want to drag my PC out to, I'm sure a laptop with recording software and the right audio inputs would be more practical but for the present I don't have one so for now I use my cassette and upload to my PC. Cassette recorders wont give you the high quality recordings like the pro studios can but they do still have some usefullness, and they are simple and easy to use. Keep the heads clean, record on the highest (fastest) tape setting, use Cr02 tapes (high bias tape if you can't find Cr02) use good mics and have fun.[/QUOTE


It's pretty much pointless to hook up an external mixer to a cassette four track because the point in doing so is defeated. You cannot bypass the preamps or eq section (unless there is a eq in/out switch which I believe no four trackers have ) of the four tracker which would be the benefit of using an external mixer. By using the line inputs the singal must pass through the the amplifier in the line/mic preamp on the four tracker thereby degrading the signal quality of the external mixer to quality of the four tracker mic/line pre. Also the signal must pass through the eq amplifier/s of the four tracker thereby destroying the quality of an external eq. You essentially end up doubling the gain stages. Of course if you need to use more mics than you have inputs on your four tracker then this is your only option. I mention the inserts because you can use an insert point on the four tracker which will bypass the mic/line preamp on the four tracker but it will still not bypass the eq section.

[MCI2424]

[QUOTE=sweetnubs;2762159]

Originally Posted by Dani Pace

It's simple, from the line out on the mixer to an input on the recorder (two inputs if it is a stereo mixer) then adjust the recorder settings and record as normal. I use a Yamaha MT 120 cassette recorder when writing and working out individual song parts and often use an external mixer to be able to use more than 4 mics at once. Most of the guys (and gals) around here are down on cassette recorders, digital has more options to work with and for many is more practical. I use mine mostly for recording in locations where I don't want to drag my PC out to, I'm sure a laptop with recording software and the right audio inputs would be more practical but for the present I don't have one so for now I use my cassette and upload to my PC. Cassette recorders wont give you the high quality recordings like the pro studios can but they do still have some usefullness, and they are simple and easy to use. Keep the heads clean, record on the highest (fastest) tape setting, use Cr02 tapes (high bias tape if you can't find Cr02) use good mics and have fun.[/QUOTE


It's pretty much pointless to hook up an external mixer to a cassette four track because the point in doing so is defeated. You cannot bypass the preamps or eq section (unless there is a eq in/out switch which I believe no four trackers have ) of the four tracker which would be the benefit of using an external mixer. By using the line inputs the singal must pass through the the amplifier in the line/mic preamp on the four tracker thereby degrading the signal quality of the external mixer to quality of the four tracker mic/line pre. Also the signal must pass through the eq amplifier/s of the four tracker thereby destroying the quality of an external eq. You essentially end up doubling the gain stages. Of course if you need to use more mics than you have inputs on your four tracker then this is your only option. I mention the inserts because you can use an insert point on the four tracker which will bypass the mic/line preamp on the four tracker but it will still not bypass the eq section.

Tra-la. Someone who knows what he is talking about.

[analog aaron]

Ok. I can deal with that. How about if I just use the four track/ eight track the standard way and when I'm ready to mixdown everything, mixdown with the external board.... Then all I'd have to do is just hook the tape outs to the boards in's and mix away....right??? But then would I have to do my panning at the recording stage or could I do it after with the external board??

[sweetnubs]

The only point I could see of using an external board is if you can output the tracks from the four tracker individually to perhaps use a more comprehensive eq section, more aux. sends, busses and insert points of an external mixer. I also think most four trackers don not have tape outputs for individual tracks although you may be able to jerry rig something by using aux sends, stereo outputs and insert points to output most if not all of the individual tracks.

[analog aaron]

Yeah, that's really all I wanted....Well, originally I wanted to use my xlr inputs on the mixing board instead of the regular 1/4" jacks, also I wanted a better eq.......But, it's ok. Actually most of the 4 track cassette units I have DO have tape outs for each track. Except the 8 track cassette has only 4 outputs.

[sweetnubs]

Well if you have tape outputs you're in business. You could use aux. sends to send out two more tracks then maybe pan track 7 hard left and take it out the stereo main output and pan track 8 hard right and take it out the right output on the main stereo output. However the tracks will still pass through the eq section of the 8 track but if your eq section on the external mixer is more comprehensive and you need the flexibility of an external mixer it might be worth it. Using the xlr's will make no difference even if the 1/4" inputs are unbalanced because the cable runs will be short.

[Tim Gillett]

If you want to have XLR inputs then yes, run the mixer outs into your portastudio line ins.

But apart from that I doubt you would get better sound quality by bypassing the input section of the portastudio. The main weakness is the tape section. Unlike a pre, it is maintenance hungry. Everything, including having the right tape, has to be set up just right, and aligned carefully. It takes time and money.

That's a serious downside of analog tape.

Tim

[sweetnubs]

Oh I see he wants to use the xlr's 'cause that's what his mics have. Just get some xlr>1/4" adapters. That's better than Using two mixers to go to tape. Now he just needs an oscilloscope and a Cassette MRL tape to align his four track.

[Tim Gillett]

Originally Posted by sweetnubs

Using the xlr's will make no difference even if the 1/4" inputs are unbalanced because the cable runs will be short.

Actually bypassing the 1/4" inputs when using XLR type mics can make a big difference. With some of the better Tascam units the 1/4" inputs were quite good but were meant more for instruments like electric guitars, not lo Z dynamic mics.
I think Tascam offered a mic transformer which fixed the impedance mismatch and gave good results, as well as making it a proper balanced input.

In practice it's usually the impedance mismatch that's the cause of preamp noise.

Tim

[sweetnubs]

I'm missing something. If he can bypass the 1/4" inputs on the four tracker then it must have xlr inputs. If it has xlr inputs why would he need the xlr inputs on a different mixer?

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by sweetnubs

I'm missing something. If he can bypass the 1/4" inputs on the four tracker then it must have xlr inputs. If it has xlr inputs why would he need the xlr inputs on a different mixer?

Most Tascam mic pres don't have phantom power, although a few late models added it. They are also a bit low on gain, and like the usual cheap pre noisy in the top range. That can make it hard to hit the tape loud. Having said that, the noise of the tape usually still dominates. Even so, whether XLR or line in, if you hit the line ins with the right level, you avoid the need to crank the Tascam pres. Also, you can submix more channels to the 4 tracks you got.

Input impedance was fairly highish. I remember 2.7K although I could be making that up. I don't remember the line input impedance off hand, but my unit didn't have any instrument inputs.

I don't remember the EQ section being offensive. Mostly it just wasn't useful. The smaller decks didn't have channel inserts, usually just an effects send/return.

If you are really crazy, you can open up the unit and reroute the circuit to feed the tape direct from the line input. There are a lot of opamps on the tape return board too, I don't have the schematic and I didn't trace it. The mixer board was straightforward to follow, but the tape return board was a lot more involved than I would have guessed. I didn't really look too close, I just opened it up for a good cleaning before I transferred the last of my 10+ year old stuff.

As things go, I haven't had time to put it back together The faders are clean though

[sweetnubs]

Oh yeah I guess the phantom power issue and high impedance/low gain of the inputs makes sense. Been a long time since I've touched a cassette four tracker! Salut 1982!

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by sweetnubs

Oh yeah I guess the phantom power issue and high impedance/low gain of the inputs makes sense. Been a long time since I've touched a cassette four tracker! Salut 1982!

I think I graduated from boomboxes' internal mics to a 4 track only in 1990 That first unit, every punch in made an audible pop on the track, so you had to watch the faders on mixdown Also, something was wrong with the erase head, because I have a couple of tracks with really quiet backwards thrash metal that had originally been on the other side of the tape Actually, that improved our songs considerably

I have to say if you look inside a '90s vintage Tascam, you'll be somewhat impressed with the quality of the engineering. The parts used aren't very sexy, but the PCBs are totally solid, and it's all fit together nicely. It's a build quality you won't see in a modern cheap mixer. And there was really no reason for Tascam to go crazy on the pres when the medium was a cassette tape. The fidelity there is about the same as a Soundblaster.

[analog aaron]

Originally Posted by Tim Gillett

If you want to have XLR inputs then yes, run the mixer outs into your portastudio line ins.

But apart from that I doubt you would get better sound quality by bypassing the input section of the portastudio. The main weakness is the tape section. Unlike a pre, it is maintenance hungry. Everything, including having the right tape, has to be set up just right, and aligned carefully. It takes time and money.

That's a serious downside of analog tape.

Tim

Huh? I must be missing something. Aligned carefully, set up right? It's a cassette for god's sakes. You pop it in and go.