Stuck in a rutt (proper recording procedure?)

[LOTYBOY]

My band is recording our 14 track CD on our own in a home studio we built from the ground up. Technology wise everything has been going great the recordings sound awesome but we've hit a brick wall.

See for the first few songs we recorded we did songs that start with drums, and then the other instruments come in after 2 measures or so. They were also fairly simplistic by design. No pauses, no change in tempo, etc, With the drum track in place the bass player had a nice solid beat to play too, and we sort of built the songs one instrument at a time. This made it really really easy to record. But now that those songs are out of the way its gotten really tough.

We have quite a few songs that start with just a guitar riff and then drums, bass, etc come in later. We managed to do one of these songs by recording the drums first and then laying down the guitar intro and "aligning" it (this is digital btw) with the drums so that it comes together. This worked out really well for that one song. There is probably one other song on the album that I could use that trick with but thats it.

The other songs all have pauses and tempo changes or what have you that make it incredibly difficult for our drummer to record his track by himself (as in without the other instruments present). He just doesn't seem to know how long to pause for, or for how long to let a "Drum roll" (I'm not a drummer so I dont know the official terms) to go on. He can't play to a metronome, we tried having him play to a recording of a practice session and the drums in the recording mess him up. He also hates wearing headphones while he plays.

In practice sessions he has no problem with pauses and tempo changes and what have you, mainly because he can listen and feel when the songs picks back up. So the only thing I can think of to get passed this rutt is to determine which instrument (besides the drums) drives each song (as in virtually present through out the entire song) and then have them both record their tracks at the same time. Sort of in a live fashion. It would be separated digitally of course I can record the guitar on a separate track than the drums but our studio is only 20x12 and the drummer needs to be able to hear the guitar or bass or whatever in order to keep time with it which means that amp will be cranked up a bit. So theres bound to be some bleed (guitar in the drum mics and vice versa) I'm not sure how that might sacrifice the recording quality. Unfortunately besides forcing my drummer to take a few weeks and practice his balls off (not really an option due to time restraints) or severely editing his drum tracks to play correctly before we can even move on to the next step (also very time consuming) I cant think of anything else to try.

The problem with editing his tracks besides time restraints is that we never really KNOW for sure if the drums are off until we try to record bass over it. Its only then that we realize somethings wrong and in order to fix it we'd have to find the section that is off beat or whatever and then move it around in our software attempting to record bass to it after every adjustment to check if its right.

So what is the proper recording procedure for recording multi-track songs when the track doesn't start with drums? And am I anywhere close?

Setup a couple of mics, record the whole song with the whole band. Use this as something to play a long to when re-tracking each individual instrument.

In the end you can delete this recording.

[steveintampa]

Record the entire thing as Danny said, AND run a line from the rhythm guitar.

This will give you something to tune in to when re-recording as not to get distracted by the entire mix.

A drummer that can't work with a metronome or a click?

[SouthSIDE Glen]

"I can't play to a rhythm track", "I can't wear headphones", "I don't like this", "that's too hard", etc. That may all be true, but put it all together and it says one thing...

"I'm not ready to record in a studio yet."

He's not ready for what you want to do yet, and until he is, he'll subconciously see that record button as the math test that he hasn't studied for. Do you really want to record under those conditions?

The best answer is to ask your drummer to suck it up and learn how to perform in a studio environment.

Until that happens, what sometimes works well is to have the whole band play, but record just the drums. The you can go back and assemble the rest of the mix piece by piece if you really wish to do it that way.

Is there a reason why you feel compelled to record one instrument at a time? Have you considered that recording two or more instruments, or even the whole band, simultaneously is a great way to get that spotnateous energy that just cannot be gotten from a Frankenmix? That requres a little more attention to detail in the tracking setup, but it's worth it when the result is capturing an overall performance that just can't be assembled from antiseptic parts.

G.

[cusebassman]

South is correct on all points, as far as I can tell. He needs to either get with the program, and realise that he isn't on stage, and that sacrifices will have to be made, perhaps a little more practice time put in, if he wants the group to get this material recorded. Even if he doesn't play with a click, I'd say he is going to have to learn to either:

1) Play along to a previously recorded, scratch version of the song that the entire band records with a couple of room mics up, or

2) Play along with a live DI'd setup, like this: set it up so he's got headphones on, and what he can hear is the drums that are live and being recorded, but also DI the guitar and bass, so that you can record the thing live, perhaps even record the DI'd guitar and bass, for reference, and then record the actual guitar and bass parts over it. Since the string instruments are direct-input, there won't be any noise in the studio space mucking up the drum recording.

Either that or try to track the entire thing live. I don't know what your capabilities are (simultaneous inputs & mic situation), so I can't say for sure if this is an option, but for many bands it is a viable one if it canm be pulled off. Of course, if you are playing in a semi-square, untreated room, I doubt you are going to get good results with all that noise reverberating. But who knows until you try

[yoyo]

a band i just got their new CD of recorded their rythm guitars, bass and drums at the same time. This is the bands 4th album, and the producer worked on the new James bond movie.

What they did was all play in one room. drums, bass and rythm guitar. but they put the guitar and bass cabds in separate iso booths so there were no bleeding issues. and the singer did scratch vocals in another room. it came out great. it gave everyone that "live feel" but there was no bleeding issues

[cusebassman]

Originally Posted by yoyo

a band i just got their new CD of recorded their rythm guitars, bass and drums at the same time. This is the bands 4th album, and the producer worked on the new James bond movie.

What they did was all play in one room. drums, bass and rythm guitar. but they put the guitar and bass cabds in separate iso booths so there were no bleeding issues. and the singer did scratch vocals in another room. it came out great. it gave everyone that "live feel" but there was no bleeding issues

Similar to the DI route I mentioned, but actually tracking the guitars - something I had completely forgotten about, which I have done before as well. Good call

[andyhix]

Use a click track anyway, and just record a scratch guitar track to it (and maybe vocals). Don't worry about tone. Heck, go direct - just focus on good timing relative to the click. Hopefully your drummer can play along to the guitar, and it will provide something to count along to during the breaks in the songs. If the click is still a prob, you could bring it in and out of the song so that it's only there when there is no guitar playing (the intro count-in, the break in the middle, etc). Then, you can go back and record a keeper take of guitar trying to get the guitarist to sync up well with the slightly (or not so slightly) sloppy drums.

This is how I've done every song on the project I'm currently working on. Except we leave the click in the drummer's headphone mix (cowbell from drum machine in our case). The drummer's gonna have to wear headphones. Tell him to get over it.

Or, hire a symphony conductor, and let him wear the headphones.

[andydeedpoll]

i'd just tell him that his first take was great, and a keeper, tell him he can go home and then ring up someone who can play to a click...

i'd have thought getting him to play to a rhythm track that's been recorded to a click is essentially the same as playing to a click but less accurate? maybe i've missed something there, but it's still asking him to play in time with something that isn't going to "go with him". i do like the idea of fading the click in and out for him though (if your monitoring setup makes it possible to do this - if you're using the aux sends on a mixer with a seperate headphone amplifier then that should work fine.)

alternatively, do each side of the pause in completely seperate takes and move them together using the computer? not ideal, maybe, but better than nothing. maybe then, for the other musicians, use a percussion instrument or record hand claps that you can then move around on a seperate track to dictate the pause?

Andrew.

[Lt. Bob]

southside has it right ..... the drummer's not really ready for recording.

I'd probably do the rhythm git with a click and add the drums.
Problem is .... if you have pauses or time changes or spots where there is no time ..... then a click won't work. In that case do what virtually all studios on the face of the Earth do and record the entire rhythm section at the same time. I've been in a lot of studios and, off the top of my head, I can't think of one time ever that they chose to record the drums first all by themselves with no rhythm section at all. You'll be able to go back and fix the git parts later if needed.

And he's simply gonna have to wear headphones ...... if he won't, then later on you can tell him how your new drummer didn't have a problem with it.

[yoyo]

Originally Posted by cusebassman

Similar to the DI route I mentioned, but actually tracking the guitars - something I had completely forgotten about, which I have done before as well. Good call

thanks man! it's nice to know when you can actually contribute, and not just take.

but yeah, the drummer needs to wear headphones. even my example of what to do requires this.

one question, how does this guy ever listen to music if he doesn't like headphones???

[Micter]

I think the approach of recording drums by themselves isn't going to be the best thing especially for a drummer that isn't a veteran in the studio. As mentioned in many posts using a click track (with mapped out time changes etc.) and laying down scratch tracks of the guitars and bass is the way to go. If the guy can't wear headphones he can't record. The bottom line is (especially in Home Recording) there are very few situations where it is possible to record drums without headphones. You could do the "live" recording and just deal with mistakes, bleedthrough, and lack of definition. I would lay down the click tracks and rehearse to them for a period of a few weeks in order to get him accustomed to playing to a click then go back and try again. Oh, some posts here indicate time changes with click tracks aren't possible. That is in fact incorrect. I do it all the time in both ProTools and Cubase 4.

I had a simular situation with my old drummer. He couldn't play to a click track for the life of him. In one session I was getting frustrated and I turned his drums off in his headphone mix so all he heard was guitar, bass, and click. He all of the sudden got better but not great. I learned a valuable lesson that day. It is a waste of time to try and record a drummer that is inexperienced in the recording studio. After 12 hours in the studio we got 3 or 4 songs done. We were force to use 8 or 9 other takes that were horrible. I spent hundreds of hours editting his drum parts. NEVER AGAIN!

[chessrock]

Jesus Christ, guys.

Could you be any harder on this drummer?

Dude doesn't play well to a click. Half of the drummers out there don't.

You track live. It's not that difficult. You just get everyone together, and you fucking play. And the engineer records it. That's the engineer's job. If he / she can't figure out a way to record a band, live, without force-feeding a fucking annoying digital popping noise in to someone's cans .... then I'm sorry, but it's the engineer who needs to go. Not the drummer.

.

[Micter]

Originally Posted by chessrock

Jesus Christ, guys.

Could you be any harder on this drummer?

Dude doesn't play well to a click. Half of the drummers out there don't.

You track live. It's not that difficult. You just get everyone together, and you fucking play. And the engineer records it. That's the engineer's job. If he / she can't figure out a way to record a band, live, without force-feeding a fucking annoying digital popping noise in to someone's cans .... then I'm sorry, but it's the engineer who needs to go. Not the drummer.

.

It isn't the engineers responsibility to make sure the drummer is capable in the studio. If the drummer can't do it he can't do it. It has nothing to do with who is hitting the record button.

[Lt. Bob]

well ..... chess has a point ..... there are bands out there that are live bands and that's the only way they sound right. They could certainly set up and play live and come back and do the vox again ..... maybe rides too.

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by Micter

It isn't the engineers responsibility to make sure the drummer is capable in the studio. If the drummer can't do it he can't do it. It has nothing to do with who is hitting the record button.

I'd love to hear someone tell that to a professional jazz drummer.

Here ... stick these cans on and play to a click track. Oh yea ... and don't use any brushes. We're going to overdub those. After we drumagog your snare, so make sure not to hit the thing too soft -- we don't want it to get triggered by a cymbal hit or anything.

.

[Lectric_Lab]

I just recorded a band over the weekend, and as usual they all played togther, not neccessarily to capture the completed sound, but to get the "rhythm section" recorded, after that they are now adding over-dubs on vocals and guitar parts. Its important to get the rhythm section exactly how you want it, to even be able to over dub other parts.

I use a seperate drum room, and sorry, the drummer has to wear headphones. Inexperienced drummers (in the studio) may have all sorts of problems, but if you all play "live" together you should be able to play live in the studio...breaks in songs can be retarded, not on beat specifically. I did a full CD with a country artist a couple years ago, it was all click track and overdubbing. The main thing was having the guitar part on there to build on and this guy would 180 a song in a heart beat. Good luck!

[LOTYBOY]

Thank you all very much. Definitely a lot of options there. We recorded our last album "live" and while it was easier, the sound quality wasn't really there. Everything was defined well enough it just sounded kind of flat and boring.

I think I'll go ahead and try recording the rhythm guitar and drums at the same time. That way he has the guitar to play along too. They're technically in separate rooms theres just no door to close between the two and no glass in the window hole. We originally had some but it was installed kind of crumby and vibrated so we took it out.

I'll use a Hi-Z cable so I can keep the cab volume low and mic it really really close. If I can I'll make the drummer wear a set of headphones so he can hear the rhythm guitar without having to crank the amp. Maybe a small set of ear buds will be more accommodating than big cans. Since quality isn't really an issue so much as isolating signals.

I THINK that should minimize bleed at least a little. I hate to "fix in the mix" but I could probably EQ a good deal of the guitar signal out of the drum track. Or maybe use a noise removal plugin to knock out everything when theres no drums playing.

But more importantly it will allow us to move forward. Even if the songs don't sound AS GOOD as the others (who knows) they will at least be RECORDED which is better than nothing.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by LOTYBOY

they will at least be RECORDED which is better than nothing.

What is the recording for? If it's a demo, you don't need more than a couple of songs anyway. If it's for a full lengh CD, then how is a bad recording better than no recording? Wouldn't it be better to actually practice for a while and get it right before you hit the record button? What's the hurry?

G.

[Robert D]

Some otherwise good drummers can't play to a click. That's a fact of life, and to me, an acceptable one. But I can't imagine a reason why a drummer can't work with a good headphone feed for an acoustically isolated rythm section take. The criteria for the pass or fail of the take can be solely whether the drums are solid. I would aim to get a couple of keepable takes. If the whole rythm section is a keeper - Great! If not, punch in or completely retrack what needs fixin with the other instruments.
If the drummer can't deal with headphones for recording, you have to make a band decision on the drummers future.

[ez_willis]

Originally Posted by LOTYBOY

The other songs all have pauses and tempo changes or what have you that make it incredibly difficult for our drummer to record his track by himself (as in without the other instruments present). He just doesn't seem to know how long to pause for, or for how long to let a "Drum roll" (I'm not a drummer so I dont know the official terms) to go on. He can't play to a metronome, we tried having him play to a recording of a practice session and the drums in the recording mess him up. He also hates wearing headphones while he plays.

In practice sessions he has no problem with pauses and tempo changes and what have you, mainly because he can listen and feel when the songs picks back up. So the only thing I can think of to get passed this rutt is to determine which instrument (besides the drums) drives each song (as in virtually present through out the entire song) and then have them both record their tracks at the same time. Sort of in a live fashion. It would be separated digitally of course I can record the guitar on a separate track than the drums but our studio is only 20x12 and the drummer needs to be able to hear the guitar or bass or whatever in order to keep time with it which means that amp will be cranked up a bit. So theres bound to be some bleed (guitar in the drum mics and vice versa) I'm not sure how that might sacrifice the recording quality. Unfortunately besides forcing my drummer to take a few weeks and practice his balls off (not really an option due to time restraints) or severely editing his drum tracks to play correctly before we can even move on to the next step (also very time consuming) I cant think of anything else to try.

The problem with editing his tracks besides time restraints is that we never really KNOW for sure if the drums are off until we try to record bass over it. Its only then that we realize somethings wrong and in order to fix it we'd have to find the section that is off beat or whatever and then move it around in our software attempting to record bass to it after every adjustment to check if its right.

So what is the proper recording procedure for recording multi-track songs when the track doesn't start with drums? And am I anywhere close?

Perfect example of why I bought a drum set, learned to play them, learned to mic them, and learned to track them the right way. It was way easier than getting a drummer, btw.

[sweetnubs]

This is why you go to a recording studio. You can set up and play live. All the amps can be isolated. Even the drums can have their own room. Overdub at will without worrying about bleed. The studio is a microscope. If you don't sound good playing live at a studio I highly recommend not releasing anything or not playing live until you do sound good.

[eeb]

Originally Posted by LOTYBOY

Thank you all very much. Definitely a lot of options there. We recorded our last album "live" and while it was easier, the sound quality wasn't really there. Everything was defined well enough it just sounded kind of flat and boring.

ok try this,


do everything live again only spend way more time on mic placements.

it only sounded flat and boring because you weren't capturing the feel.. if anything i find a live recording will usually always have the opposite effect.

I'm actually in a similar situation.. I have a band coming back in the studio after laying down 1 song a couple months ago.. they were convinced (and i didn't argue either) that they should do it part by part..

it really didn't work out that well in my opinion.. the drummer couldn't really play to a click and the songs just had no "feel" (drummer and everyone else had never played to a click before) they're a hardcore band and they're coming back in next weekend to do a 5 song ep. I told them that i'm going to record them live.. I'm 100% confident that the results will be night and day.. I don't have the biggest space to record so i may have to get creative with the mic placements but fuck it.. no headphones, no click just play.. Just be sure to spend ALOT of time getting a great sound from the get go and you should be fine.

[sweetnubs]

Originally Posted by eeb

ok try this,


do everything live again only spend way more time on mic placements.

it only sounded flat and boring because you weren't capturing the feel.. if anything i find a live recording will usually always have the opposite effect.

I'm actually in a similar situation.. I have a band coming back in the studio after laying down 1 song a couple months ago.. they were convinced (and i didn't argue either) that they should do it part by part..

it really didn't work out that well in my opinion.. the drummer couldn't really play to a click and the songs just had no "feel" (drummer and everyone else had never played to a click before) they're a hardcore band and they're coming back in next weekend to do a 5 song ep. I told them that i'm going to record them live.. I'm 100% confident that the results will be night and day.. I don't have the biggest space to record so i may have to get creative with the mic placements but fuck it.. no headphones, no click just play.. Just be sure to spend ALOT of time getting a great sound from the get go and you should be fine.

Recording a live band in a small space can be troublesome. Watch phasing and try to baffle if you can. Another option is to record drum/bass together then overdub guitars/vocals.

[sweetnubs]

Also packing blanket amp tent and kick tunnel can help when recording live, especially small spaces. Di bass then reamping is another option too. Rock out with your cock out!