Muddy guitar tones

[fris9]

I've been struggling getting the kind of guitar tones I want and need some suggestions. First, I'm using a 57 on a Marshall cab, with a JCM 2000 head. I love the tone I get out of the rig, but micing it doesn't seem to capture it. I'm using M Powered pro tools with a Firewire 1814 interface. I've tried a couple different chains; 57 to a UA610 tube preamp to the interface, and 2) 57 through a Mackie board then to the interface. The tones are just sounding muddy and not "in your face". In fact the only thing that seems to help at all is totally cranking the highs on the head to compensate.

Anyone have these problems? Am I just not liking the sound of the 57 and should I try another mic that's brighter? I've also tried different positioning of the mic-straight on, off axis, etc.... Thanks-

[Ironklad Audio]

1)have you turned down the lows on the amp??

2)have you high-passed the guitar tracks??

[mrface2112]

where is your ear when you're "loving the sound" you're getting out of the amp? find where it sounds good to you and put the mic where your ears are.

if that doesn't work, chances are your room is lying to you and making you think it sounds good when it really doesn't. in that case, you need more acoustic treatment.

chances are you need more acoustic treatment anyway.


cheers,
wade

[Micter]

That sounds strange to me as Marshall amps usually have a lot of highs. I would move the 57 closer to the dust cap. Try moving the mic back a few inches from the grill.

[Sloan]

Spend literally hours and hours experimenting with microphone placement and amp settings. Keep some reference guitar tones around and constantly compare your sounds to them. Just lock yourself into your room and go at it.

What type of sound are you going for anyway?

[fris9]

Tone-wise, I guess for right now I'm just going for a Les Paul-through-a Marshall kind of classic tone. Not metal by any means. I've tried putting the mic in the spot that I like the tone, but then it sounds "far away". Guess I'll keep experimenting with it.

[mrhotapples]

If you're going for a classic sound, make sure you back the mic off a few inches or you'll get more bass than you rightfully might want and THAT might be mudding it up. If you like how it sounds where you are, add a mic far away and put one up close. Try going 3-5 and a half feet away for a room mic and 3 inches off the grill. Set your tone up and if it sounds different once you record it, make adjustments to the amp settings until what you get sounds more like what you were originally hearing. In other words, find your tone, and if the mic doesn't give you what you want, memorize how it sounds...USE YO EARS...And set the amp up so that when the mic picks it up, it sounds like your tone. When you record the track, slide the wavs together so that the waveform begins and starts at the same time if you want less of a room sound and more of a mix of tonalities.

[Ford Van]

Combining different mics together generally produces guitar tones with more "dimension" to the sound.

I tell you, lately, some of the best guitar tones I have worked with have been a sm-57 combined with a Royer R-121. But I have gotten excellent results with combining a 57 for a e609, AT 4050, AT 4033, Neumann U87, AKG 414.

You hear in stereo. Your ears are in two different parts of the room, and each part can sound wildly different from each other. It only makes sense to try to pick up the sound of a guitar with at least two mics on it if what you expect to record is what you are hearing in the room.

I agree too with the posts above about how your monitoring room could be influencing what you hear too. Be careful of that.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by Micter

That sounds strange to me as Marshall amps usually have a lot of highs. I would move the 57 closer to the dust cap. Try moving the mic back a few inches from the grill.

I have the same problem with my Marshall JCM2000 DSL50.
When using the amp distortion that is.
I turn the low end almost all the way off and the highs almost full, and a nice helping of the mids. It does sound dang muddy when using anywhere near 5 on the low end.
Yeah hi pass the guitar after recording a test recording. Then you should be able tell if you need more or less low end.

If you get any good recordings please post them so I can hear them.

Cheers,
Eck

[freakout]

i have the same issue only with all instruments. I have an old Fender Bassman amp. The highs could tear the ear off Pete Townshend. Put a SM57 in front of it. Straight up mud.

[Sloan]

Dudes, try something other than an SM57. Please.

[Seafroggys]

Try the Audix i6. Same price as the 57, but it has scooped frequency response, so less muddy mids to deal with.

[giraffe]

sounds like a good chain to me. (jcm 2000, sm 57, ua 610)

change your strings,
turn the tone nob up on the guitar.
then have it removed.

if this does not work then you have to face some important life decisions about your choice of tone.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

If you really know how to play guitar, nobody will care about your tone.

If you don't really know how to play guitar, your tone won't make you sound like you do.

Get some strings, keep them tuned, play the right notes and chords, play them with some artistic skill, and the rest is irrelevant.

G.

[The Axis]

If you really know how to play guitar, nobody will care about your tone.

?!?!?
Most great guitarists are known for, and base their carreers around a great, recognizable tone. Have you ever noticed how crappy some rock tunes sound based on the tinny, harsh, distorted guitar sounds alone ?

===
Dull tone:

hmmm...usually it is the opposite: the guitar sounds to harsh and bright.

Your equipment chain sounds very "normal"so....

Could it possibly be your monitiors or headphones ? have you listened on multiple output devices ?
Some of the popular headphones sound great for bassy rap, but have severely limited high-frequency response.

Just a possibility.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by The Axis

?!?!?
Most great guitarists are known for, and base their carreers around a great, recognizable tone. Have you ever noticed how crappy some rock tunes sound based on the tinny, harsh, distorted guitar sounds alone ?

You are joking, right?

Let's see...

Jimi Hendrix
Andres Segovia
Stevie Ray Vaughn
Joe Pass
Eric Clapton
Lester Spann
Robert Johnson
Joe Satriani
Les Paul
Carlos Santana
Buddy Guy
Christopher Parkening
Steve Vai
Bonnie Raitt
Django Reinhardt

Let's see, which one of those top notch guitarists are known more for any tone that is not a direct result of their playing ability than they are for actually knowing how to play guitar?.

And which one of those would not be just as worth listening to on a Sears guitar going into a Pignose as they are on theri favorite rig?

NONE.

Learn to play the damn guitar and don't worry about your damn tone.

G.

Add Randy Rhoads to that list. Some of his songs sounded pretty good, but like on Crazy Train, the tone is pretty shitty by most standards, but his playing makes it sound good.

Also, if your guitar/amp sound like complete shit, it can be pretty uninspiring and really effect performance. At least for me. I actually stopped playing electric guitar for over a year because my amp is that bad.

[The Axis]

You are joking, right?

Let's see...

Jimi Hendrix
Andres Segovia
Stevie Ray Vaughn
.....
Let's see, which one of those top notch guitarists are known more for any tone that is not a direct result of their playing ability than they are for actually knowing how to play guitar?.

Of course it is both.
But I am speculating you are not a guitarist ?
Because any guitarist can immediately identify most of those guys from their unique tone.
In fact, I'll bet EVERY guitarist here can identify Hendrix from "those two notes"

...and Segovia was the first major classical player to popularize nylon strings for their superior retention of intonation.

Any guitarists want to weigh in on SRV's "ordinary" tone ?

The only one I would agree with you on is Satriani. He tends to wank on endlessly with super high gain distortion, and playing almost as many notes per second as Malmsteen. At the end, everyone says "Gee, He's really good." Ho hum.

[Micter]

Originally Posted by The Axis

Of course it is both.
But I am speculating you are not a guitarist ?
Because any guitarist can immediately identify most of those guys from their unique tone.
In fact, I'll bet EVERY guitarist here can identify Hendrix from "those two notes"

...and Segovia was the first major classical player to popularize nylon strings for their superior retention of intonation.

Any guitarists want to weigh in on SRV's "ordinary" tone ?

The only one I would agree with you on is Satriani. He tends to wank on endlessly with super high gain distortion, and playing almost as many notes per second as Malmsteen. At the end, everyone says "Gee, He's really good." Ho hum.

Dude, you have got to be kidding about Satch. He has some recorded some of the most tasteful guitar ever. You have apperently only heard a few of his more "busy" songs. Do yourself a favor and actually listen to some of his early stuff.
check this out. http://musiconome.vodpod.com/video/118128-reel-satriani

I agree that guitar tone can make or break my playing. I need a certain "feel" to the amp to get the most out of myself.

[deadleafecho]

Going back to the OP question....Try a MD421 I love mine so so so much, going into the same preamp you have. However, Ive found for the most part I cant get a guitar sound I like with just one mic, so Ill add a 57 or my friends beta 57A. Have you tried turning the gain down? If so try again. Then turn it down more. Then turn the master volume WAY the fuck up.
Also, you must face the fact that what works live or just practicing doesnt always work for recording.

Try using a smaller amp like a champ or Princeton reverb any small amp even a solid state. Add a boost pedal to get the raunch associated with the classic Marshall sound. You'd be surprised what a small cheap SS amp with a good pedal in front can sound like recorded.

Use the 57 in front and another mic in the room. Even another one behind the amp, if open back you can stick it right behind the speaker but might need to reverse the phase on it. Even though the Marshall is closed back you get a lot of sound from that back board.

You can drive the cab with a smaller head or the speaker in the amp itself.

The trick is the mics and were they are placed. You need more than one so you can blend and not rely on only one mic. That mic in front is really being driven and that can make the recording muddy and mid heavy. Use the second mic to blend in some high end and even out the sound.

That amp is probably too loud for the room and no matter what you do it might not sound right.

Also if you have the master down and the preamp gain up on the Marshall the sound from the speakers are already very compressed and squished. I have been playing blues rock for 35 years and have played a lot!!!! I don't use master volume amps because of that.

I also had my own live sound company and always had problems getting a good sound from master volume amps because of the reasons I stated, if they had an open back I found some times it sound better if I mic'd it from the back with a gate as not to pickup the drums. Or a board to stop some bleed, anything.

You're probably making it worse with the 610. If anything you need a cleaner non colored pre.

Do you have a parametric EQ? Try that.....find the approximate frequencies with a regular EQ then once you have an idea were the problem frequencies are use the para to really zero in on them.

You might also try a compressor before it goes into the interface to limit and slightly compress but probably more of a limiter. You need to get a really controlled sound at that point.

If you have a small board you can try a few mics in the room then into the board, into the Solo 610 into a compressor until you get the best mix from different mics in different parts of the room. Even an EQ before the compressor, like a mini PA system.

Get the fullness from the mic in front, blend in the sound from the other mics until you get the highs and space. You can add reverb later if you want.

The bottom line is to get your sound first then try to record it.

Do not change your sound, it will change the way you play and then you are defeating the whole purpose.

I don't think you can ever get a good guitar sound recorded with one mic. You would be better off using a POD then one mic. Experiment with were the mics are placed, but you need more than one even if it's a cheap one as long as the noise is limited. A cheap condenser mic in the middle of the room might be enough.

[bkkornaker]

coming from a guitar players point of view (myself).......

i agree with Glen........fresh strings, good chops.........make magic happen. If you asked Joe satriani or Steve vai to play through a cardboard amp with a broken 6 in speaker, with a guitar with rubber bands for strings......

(if they were fresh rubber bands, and in tune)

...they would still have kick ass tone somehow.

I had the same problem, when searching for great recorded tone. i always wanted better gear for a better tone...............but then something happend.........


....i started to play better, and my chops got better.........and all of a sudden, my tone that i was searching for seems to happen out of nowhere, regardless of what gear i used or played through.........

[bkkornaker]

or here is a mic technique that works well.........its simple......and only takes a single mic.....



if its still to muddy...move the mic over the "dust cap" area, and that will CERTAINLY brighten your day!