Why did Jesus have to die?

[32-20-Blues]

I was brought up a Catholic, and was taught that Jesus died for our sins.

What does that mean, though? How did our sins cause the need for his death? How did his death do anything for our sins?

[lucky13]

I believe the atonement in the Garden of Gethsemene, before Judas betrayed him is where he atoned for our sins. That was the whole bleeding out of every pore thing. He had to be crucified so he could be resurrected, so that we could all be resurrected and go back to live with god in heaven after the second coming.

That's how I remember it anyway.

[32-20-Blues]

Originally Posted by lucky13

I believe the atonement in the Garden of Gethsemene, before Judas betrayed him is where he atoned for our sins. That was the whole bleeding out of every pore thing. He had to be crucified so he could be resurrected, so that we could all be resurrected and go back to live with god in heaven after the second coming.

That's how I remember it anyway.

So when he was resurrected, he paved the way for us?

Why did the way need to be paved?

Couldn't he have done that without death?

[lucky13]

Originally Posted by 32-20-Blues

So when he was resurrected, he paved the way for us?

Why did the way need to be paved?

Couldn't he have done that without death?

These are the reasons I'm an athiest. Too many questions that no one can give me a straight answer to.

[Gandalf]

Originally Posted by 32-20-Blues

So when he was resurrected, he paved the way for us?

Why did the way need to be paved?

Couldn't he have done that without death?

So does that mean that anyone who died before then wasn't resurrected, 'cos the way hadn't been paved yet.

Were they first in the queue to be resurrected once the way had been paved, or did they just miss the boat?

[32-20-Blues]

Originally Posted by lucky13

These are the reasons I'm an athiest. Too many questions that no one can give me a straight answer to.

Exactly .

[apl]

God made man and man disobeyed God. The penalty for disobedience is death. We all inherit a disobedient nature and consequently the punishment. However, Jesus did not disobey God, so His death was undeserved. Therefore, there was a death available to cover the penalty for someone else. God uses Jesus' death to cover the punishment for anyone who would follow the instructions to have their account credited.

[apl]

Originally Posted by 32-20-Blues

Exactly .

Look, if you walked around the mall asking which mic was best for a Les Paul through a Tube Screamer and Mesa stack, the answers would make you think home recording was impossible.

[32-20-Blues]

Originally Posted by apl

God made man and man disobeyed God. The penalty for disobedience is death. We all inherit a disobedient nature and consequently the punishment. However, Jesus did not disobey God, so His death was undeserved. Therefore, there was a death available to cover the penalty for someone else. God uses Jesus' death to cover the punishment for anyone who would follow the instructions to have their account credited.

Okay, makes sense. Can I ask, though, where it says that in the bible?

Where does it state that the punishment for 'disobedience' is death? IIRC, Adam and Eve were banished from God's good grace, but not killed. Eve was told that her pain in childbirth would be multiplied, and Adam was told that he would endure eternal (but not physical) death.

[32-20-Blues]

Originally Posted by apl

Look, if you walked around the mall asking which mic was best for a Les Paul through a Tube Screamer and Mesa stack, the answers would make you think home recording was impossible.

Lol! Great analogy.

[gcapel]

Read Psalms 22, and Isaiah 53.

These are passages written long before jesus surfaced. They are prophecy of the resurrection.

Under the old law for jews before Jesus, you could only be forgiven through a priests. God sent Jesus to make a new covenant for all nations, not just the Hebrew Jew. He was sent to pay the price of all our sins. All we have to do is accept him and follow his teachings through faith.

[gcapel]

The Jews asked Him for a sign to prove that He was the Messiah. Jesus responded with a startling statement: "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" (John 2:19). The Jews thought He was talking about Herod’s Temple, but John says, "He was speaking of the temple of His body" (John 2:21). And John adds an interesting observation: "When therefore He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken" (John 2:22

[apl]

Originally Posted by 32-20-Blues

Where does it state that the punishment for 'disobedience' is death?

See Genesis 2, scroll down to verse 17.

[32-20-Blues]

Originally Posted by apl

See Genesis 2, scroll down to verse 17.

Yeah, I'm very familiar with Genesis, but as it turned out that death was spiritual, not physical (as evidenced by the fact that Adam and Eve were allowed to live). Jesus' death, on the other hand, was not spiritual, but all too physical. The two forms of death, then, are not comparable.

[32-20-Blues]

Originally Posted by gcapel

He was sent to pay the price of all our sins. All we have to do is accept him and follow his teachings through faith.

I understand the stated reason - Jesus died for our sins (see my first post), but my question is, how did his death impact upon our sins?

As far as I can tell, the two are unrelated, although apl has come closest in explaining the link.

[gcapel]

Originally Posted by 32-20-Blues

I understand the stated reason - Jesus died for our sins (see my first post), but my question is, how did his death impact upon our sins?

As far as I can tell, the two are unrelated, although apl has come closest in explaining the link.

As as I said before read Isaiah 53. it pretty much says what apl explained.

[32-20-Blues]

Originally Posted by gcapel

As as I said before read Isaiah 53. it pretty much says what apl explained.

Cool, thanks.

Edit: Just read it. is this the passage you were referring to?

But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

It doesn't quite say what apl said, though.

He said we inherit a punishment of death, and Jesus died to take our punishment onto his shoulders. Where, in the bible, does it mention man's punishment of death for disobedience?

I've read Genesis, but all I can find there is reference to spiritual, not physical, death.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by 32-20-Blues

I was brought up a Catholic, and was taught that Jesus died for our sins.

What does that mean, though? How did our sins cause the need for his death? How did his death do anything for our sins?

You were raised a Catholic in Ireland and didn't have it drummed into you

I was raised a Catholic here in the UK and it was drummed into me.

The question I would ask you is, do you want the Church of Rome version or one of the many many other interpretations of Scripture, the Bible and the Gospels??

[32-20-Blues]

Originally Posted by muttley600

You were raised a Catholic in Ireland and didn't have it drummed into you

I was raised a Catholic here in the UK and it was drummed into me.

The question I would ask you is, do you want the Church of Rome version or one of the many many other interpretations of Scripture, the Bible and the Gospels??

Oh, I had it drummed in to me alright, but I never understood it.

And I haven't even started to think about the other interpretations of the bible yet. The one I know has caused me enough problems.

[muttley600]

For a fairly easy to read and understand outline of the catholic belief in the Redemption, which I think is what your asking about this is quite good.

http://www.saintaquinas.com/what_is_the_redemption.html

[gcapel]

"For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Romans 6:23

edit:
Gen 3:3 but of the fruit of the tree
which is in the midst of the garden,
God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it,
neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

They ate it and they died physically. Maybe not on the spot but they died.

[muttley600]

For all things Catholic. This site is OK. The specifics of the Redemption are here...

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12677d.htm

Good luck with that and God Bless

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by apl

Jesus did not disobey God, so His death was undeserved.

So when a 6 month old baby is tortured to death in Somalia or Sudan (or anywhere, obviously)....it's "deserved"????

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by 32-20-Blues

But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

Whoah! I had no idea Jim Morrison wrote the Bible.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by RAMI

So when a 6 month old baby is tortured to death in Somalia or Sudan (or anywhere, obviously)....it's "deserved"????

I don't know, do you?

I doubt it but that might just be me! I don't really see how that relates though.