Using tape for saturation

[pathdoc]

Anyone here running tracks into a tape machine from their DAW? I've been thinking of running a stereo mix of drums into a 1/4 real to real and then back into my computer in an attempt to capture a more saturated sound.
Also, do most mastering houses go to tape during any stage of the mastering process?

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by pathdoc

I've been thinking of running a stereo mix of drums into a 1/4 real to real and then back into my computer in an attempt to capture a more saturated sound.

Not a bad idea if you have the time for it, and if it gives you something you like.

Also, do most mastering houses go to tape during any stage of the mastering process?

Usually not. But some do. And others can if specifically requested.

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[LogicDeLuxe]

Sometimes I use a compressor with a curve imitating tape saturation and set attack and release to 0, thus introducing the same harmonics.
HDCD's peak expansion works this way, as this process is reversible (up to 6 dB).

[NYMorningstar]

Originally Posted by pathdoc

Anyone here running tracks into a tape machine from their DAW? I've been thinking of running a stereo mix of drums into a 1/4 real to real and then back into my computer in an attempt to capture a more saturated sound.
Also, do most mastering houses go to tape during any stage of the mastering process?

Sometimes I'll do a mix in analog instead of mixing in the box to get a particular sound. You need to have good D/A - A/D converters or you'll degrade your sound.

[FALKEN]

whats so great about tape saturation? I usually try to get as little distortion as possible while getting as little hiss as possible....1/4" doesn't really saturate all that much anyway........

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by LogicDeLuxe

Sometimes I use a compressor with a curve imitating tape saturation and set attack and release to 0, thus introducing the same harmonics.

Originally Posted by FALKEN

1/4" doesn't really saturate all that much anyway........

Oh great. We got the Genius Brigade here today!

.

[LogicDeLuxe]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

whats so great about tape saturation?

Vintage sound. In small amounts, it can add warmth. Exciters do similar things.

I usually try to get as little distortion as possible while getting as little hiss as possible

As I do.
"usually" is the key word here. I rarely use exciters either.

1/4" doesn't really saturate all that much anyway

It is only a matter of level. The hotter, the more harmonics you'll get due to saturation. You certainly can wreck any tape recording if you go too hot.
The same thing applies with the compressor method, ie. if the curve does not match the input level, this doesn't work as intended.

The advantage of the compressor method is that it doesn't jitter like tape. Thus, you can add a high pass filter to basically get the harmonics only and mix them with the input. This can help old tape recordings which are missing the high end to a degree. If you just seek vintage sound, the tape method should do, of course.
While tape saturation (and imitations thereof) add 3rd harmonics, you can also try a ring modulator, which can produce 2nd harmonics (with twice the dynamics, so you probably want to compress them). Also works great, if you're restoring old recordings.

[chessrock]

Oh my god. (hides head in shame)

Is this really what it's come to?

.

[Reggie]

Originally Posted by LogicDeLuxe

you can also try a ring modulator, which can produce 2nd harmonics (with twice the dynamics, so you probably want to compress them).

Whoa.

And now we gotta worry about tape jitter, too?

[masteringhouse]

Originally Posted by pathdoc

Also, do most mastering houses go to tape during any stage of the mastering process?

It can happen, but it's usually reserved for mixes with severe digititus. Other techniques include using a HEDD, or a variety of other "color" producing plugs and hardware.

I recently did a shootout with a client using 1/2" tape versus Crane Song's Phoenix plugs and the plugs won in this case. Sometimes tape wins over the plugs, it just depends on the amount of additional noise you don't mind adding and what glues the mix better.

[LogicDeLuxe]

Originally Posted by Reggie

And now we gotta worry about tape jitter, too?

Depends on what you are doing. When you mix a tape recording with its source in sync, the jittering certainly cause combing.

[cusebassman]

Another viable option:

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Audio jitter is a property of digital information only; there is no such thing as "tape jitter" when working with analog tape.

(There can be some video jitter caused by problems syncing the interleaved fields of a video broadcast frame when dealing with analog videotape recordings, but that is totally unrelated to anything that happens with 1/2" analog audio tape recordings.)

Logic mentions syncing with the source, implying perhaps the use of a DTC sync track on the audio tape. There is a possibility of time code jitter when reading back such a digital track. But if one is just looking to saturate a 2mix, the use of any sync track should not be necessary. For years I ran masters through tape to get "that sound" and never once had to use any type of sync track.

And even if it were used and there were some nominal DTC jitter, its effects would likely be swamped by the effects of the saturation distortion itself.

Q @ Tom V.: Any idea if/when Crane Song plans to port Phoenix to VST for the rest of us?

G.

[noisewreck]

Originally Posted by chessrock

Not a bad idea if you have the time for it, and if it gives you something you like.



Usually not. But some do. And others can if specifically requested.

.

Jeebus Chess. What's the matter with you? No quick snide remarks this time? Are you OK?

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by noisewreck

Jeebus Chess. What's the matter with you? No quick snide remarks this time? Are you OK?

I'm currently attending a 12-step AA program. Assholes Anonymous.

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/forumdisplay.php?f=46

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[masteringhouse]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

Q @ Tom V.: Any idea if/when Crane Song plans to port Phoenix to VST for the rest of us?

G.

Not that I've heard of. Personally I think that he should incorporate it into the HEDD. I preferred the sound of the plugs over the tape emulation in the HEDD unit.

Another good plug is Steve Massey's Tape-Head:

http://www.masseyplugins.com/index_v...?page=tapehead

Unfortunately also not VST. It would be nice if Digidesign allowed an RTAS to VST wrapper, but we know that story.

In regards to analog tape jitter, maybe he is confusing this with flutter? Though the explanation given when synching to analog tape still doesn't make sense to me.

[Hi_Flyer]

Originally Posted by LogicDeLuxe

Vintage sound. In small amounts, it can add warmth. Exciters do similar things.As I do.
"usually" is the key word here. I rarely use exciters either.It is only a matter of level. The hotter, the more harmonics you'll get due to saturation. You certainly can wreck any tape recording if you go too hot.
The same thing applies with the compressor method, ie. if the curve does not match the input level, this doesn't work as intended.

The advantage of the compressor method is that it doesn't jitter like tape. Thus, you can add a high pass filter to basically get the harmonics only and mix them with the input. This can help old tape recordings which are missing the high end to a degree. If you just seek vintage sound, the tape method should do, of course.
While tape saturation (and imitations thereof) add 3rd harmonics, you can also try a ring modulator, which can produce 2nd harmonics (with twice the dynamics, so you probably want to compress them). Also works great, if you're restoring old recordings.

????

I am a relative newb, and this sounds like total crap to me. either its a joke fake account, or an idiot spreading some plain WEIRD mis-information.



back to the original poster's quesitons... Yes, its my understanding that this is pretty common. I have been experimenting with a newly acquired 1/2" 8 track, and so far, I like it. I record mostly aggressive rock/punk, so I slam the tape pretty hard for effect. it helps ALOT on dynamic sources, like drums, vox and bass (especially since I don't have a outboard comp). It

Call it what you want, "grit" "saturation" "warmth" or whatever, but there is definitely SOMETHING to tape...

I use a Tascam 38, which I have been told, does not saturate and fatten up like some of the better machines, but I still think it sounds pretty damn awesome on stuff like drums. I would think your 1/4" will get you in the ballpark too, although a wider format on a better deck is gonna likely sound better.

Best thing to do is to experiemnt yourself.

What kind of deck do you have? is it a 2 track mastering deck? Tascam? Is it well-maintained?

[LogicDeLuxe]

Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter

Jitter is an unwanted variation of one or more signal characteristics in electronics and telecommunications. Jitter may be seen in characteristics such as the interval between successive pulses, or the amplitude, frequency, or phase of successive cycles.

Jitter explained pretty accurate. It is in no way restricted to the digital domain. In fact, even some drummers use the term jitter to express how much their hits are off beat. For example, try loading any Red Hot Chili Peppers track into an audio editor and try to overlay a metronome track to it, and you see (and hear) what jitters are (generally not a bad thing, if the musicians are skilled enough to stay in sync to each other).

I'm making megamixes, and I know that rock music and some older pop songs need heavy editing to correct the timings to make them mixable whereas most pop, techno and hip hop tracks have either crystal exact timing, are played to a metronome track or to a looped groove/tape, those can be mixed much more easily.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by LogicDeLuxe

Jitter explained pretty accurate. It is in no way restricted to the digital domain. In fact, even some drummers use the term jitter to express how much their hits are off beat. For example, try loading any Red Hot Chili Peppers track into an audio editor and try to overlay a metronome track to it, and you see (and hear) what jitters are (generally not a bad thing, if the musicians are skilled enough to stay in sync to each other).

I'm making megamixes, and I know that rock music and some older pop songs need heavy editing to correct the timings to make them mixable whereas most pop, techno and hip hop tracks have either crystal exact timing, are played to a metronome track or to a looped groove/tape, those can be mixed much more easily.

One knows they are in trouble when they need to go to Wacky-pedia for support

That Wacky-pedia definition is basically talking about variances in the timing of a regular timed signal. Tom was right, any attempt to apply that to variances in playback speed of an audio tape is errneous - there one is talking about flutter in playback speed, not signal jitter; two entirely different processes and effects.

Jitter would only happen in the mis-timing of a digital signal such as a digital TC stripe on the audio tape so that when correlated to a house time base, there would be digital jitter in the signal - not entirely unlike the jitter that can be caused in the timing or mis-timing of signals soming out of an ADC.

Flutter, OTOH, is just small variations in the playback speed of an analog tape that could, if strong enough, cause minor high frequency pitch variations during the playback of the tape. You are right in that there may be some comb filtering if one tried overalying a fluttered playback on top of an un-fluttered original, but that would require some pretty extreme flutter - to the point of the deck probably being in need of maintenance for a deformed capstan or pinch roller or an actual motor repair.

And besides, why would somebody want to overlay saturation? While not impossible, I suppose, I personally have never heard of a tape saturation wet/dry mix. you either saturate the signal or you don't. The only mix variable there is there is the saturation level itself.

And as far as drummers calling it "jitter", that's not far off from beat makers calling their sequences "productions". It's simply a lay misuse of a term they don't fully understand themselves.

G.

[LogicDeLuxe]

I see, this matter requires a demonstration. So here I have a rather low quality track lacking high frequencies. That I ring modulated, then I applied a Butterworth high pass filter at 7000 kHz 3rd order, compressed it 2:1, applied the same filter again to filter out any intermodulation produced by the compressor and finally mixed it back to the original track (which is not processed in any way). It is far from perfect, though you should clearly hear the difference and get the idea: http://www.zshare.net/download/3185518188f247/
Sure, it never would sound like a good quality source, but with enough patience and skillful tweaking, it can go significantly better than this example I just did.

Originally Posted by Hi_Flyer

????

I am a relative newb, and this sounds like total crap to me. either its a joke fake account, or an idiot spreading some plain WEIRD mis-information.

Or you are just afraid to try this to see that it actually works.

If this really sounds so weird, I finally understand why manufacturer of exciters hesitate to give a description on how their devices actually work internally. I bet, they are pretty similar to this.

[Hi_Flyer]

The reason I bought a tape deck is so that I won't need complicated digital tricks or use crappy sounding emulation plug-ins to get a digital version of what tape sounds like.

It sounds like what you are doing is simply compressing, and then boosting high end. can't you get the same effect with a multi-band compressor?

I've never heard the term "jitter" in reference to tape decks. I'm willing to bet that term did not come into widespread use in discussions of audio engineering until the advent of digital.

[Robert D]

Jitter is what you get when you snort meth. Tape has wow and flutter. Thanks for the link to Swami Knows though, it's so hard to find a good on-line swami.

[LogicDeLuxe]

Originally Posted by Hi_Flyer

It sounds like what you are doing is simply compressing, and then boosting high end. can't you get the same effect with a multi-band compressor?

There is no high end. You can't boost or compress something which doesn't exist. Check my example, load it into an editor and look at the spectral view.

Actually if there is enough high end left to work with, a combination of expansion and compression works great to get a clear sound while hiding the tape noise and keeping a reasonable dynamic at the same time. I restored a lot of rare cassette tapes (which are significantly worse than reel to reel tapes), among them are many audio plays which aren't available on vinyl either. I certainly know how such things work. I even do the Dolby decoding on the digital domain, thus I can correct tape degration ahead.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by LogicDeLuxe

There is no high end. You can't boost or compress something which doesn't exist.

I'll back Logic up on this one. If I understand correctly, the key to his method is the use of the ring modulator. He's using the RM to synthesize some of the lower-order harmonics of the still-existing lower-frequency signals. Then he high-passes that to keep only the higher-frequency harmonics, and mixes them back into the original. This not only synthesizes extra high frequency information that has been lost, but does so without directly touching the HF niose level itself (unless or until one affects it with compression or gain.)

I still disagree with the misuse of the term "jitter" in the context of analog information, though . Jitter is a different type of effect altogether than the pitch flutter caused by a variance in the playback speed of an analog-only tape.

G.

[Hi_Flyer]

OK, I get what you guys are saying about synthesizing high frequency harmonics that aren't there. not too hard to understand. but I thought the original poster was asking about tape saturation, not audio restoration? how is this relevant? If you have a decent deck with good frequency response, why would it be necessary to synthesize frequencies that aren't there?

high end boost and sythesized high frequencies are not typically associated with the sound of analog tape, if anything the opposite is usually true.