What mixer do you use with your 1 - 2 inch recorder?

[cjacek]

I'm just curious, what mixers do you guys use for your 1 or 2" recorders? There is an apparent minority here with the 500 LB monster "washing machine" types and I'm just wondering as to your choice of mixers. We continually talk about TASCAM recorder this and matching TASCAM mixer that but we never get into the "pro" formats, in a serious information exchange. Surely, you can't use a typical TASCAM board with a 16 - 24 OTARI, MCI or STUDER, for example .. or can you?

[_DK]

A local studio uses a Studer with their MCI.
I don't see why you can't use a Tascam board. It won't sound as good, but that's the only reason not to use it.

[Beck]

Originally Posted by cjacek

Surely, you can't use a typical TASCAM board with a 16 - 24 OTARI, MCI or STUDER, for example .. or can you?

Yes you can.

You don't have to have a board that must be lowered into the room by a crane to sound good.

There are plenty of consoles with small footprints, but not small sound. Size has nothing to do with sound. It's just that commercial environments have historically used large consoles with all the bells and whistles you can think of and they need them.

I wouldn't use a sonically substandard console even if I only had an R8 any more than I would if I had the best 2" 16 track on the planet. Regardless of the type of recorder, the console is just another sonic link in the chain. It should be as much as you can afford… and as in my case it will be hacked and moded to sound better than when it left the factory no matter what it is. And since nearly any console can be improved above assembly-line standards, IMO the lighter and easier they are to mod, the better. So I tend toward relatively small, well-made consoles.

I've seen all kinds of recorder/console combos over the years. There are no rules.

[The Ghost of FM]

There's some fun stuff to look at here if you're curious about how the other half lives!

http://www.solid-state-logic.com/index.html

http://www.solid-state-logic.com/music/4000series.html

http://rupertneve.com/products/5088/

Cheers!

[cjacek]

Thanks guys! Very interesting indeed. So lets say I have an unbalanced 1/4" and RCA loaded -10 db mixer, much like many of the TASCAMs, is the solution here to use a level converter box? Is that the easiest solution?

[Beck]

I have to keep reminding myself of differences in perspectives on the forum. Practically speaking the vast majority of home (and now even commercial studios) need turn-key products that are already fine-tuned to their needs.

In the old days if half the stuff you owned wasn’t moded or made from scratch DIY you weren’t a real engineer. I was blessed to be apprenticed as a teen by older folks in that sort of environment even though that culture was really a bit before my time.

So anyway, for future reference I never look at a product as being terminally what it is, but more as a starting point that can be improved upon.

I understand most people need equipment with all the features and performance right out of the box (crate). In that case one will nearly always have to spend more and end up with some mass and features they don’t need, but will pay for nonetheless.

It’s kinda like the difference between two people that see a rusty old 65 Corvette… one just sees a rusty old Corvette and the other can already see in his mind’s eye what it will be after he restores it.

Or in the case (more on topic) of someone like Ethan (emv1024)… he can get a deal on a nice console, its only flaw being beat up or missing wood panels, but then make his own that exceed whatever the factory did in the first place, I’m sure.

In the same spirit my consoles and many other devices are adorned with internal components, switches, buttons, jacks and features that weren't there when I bought them.

[cjacek]

Originally Posted by Beck

I was blessed to be apprenticed as a teen by older folks in that sort of environment even though that culture was really a bit before my time.

<snip>

In the same spirit my consoles and many other devices are adorned with internal components, switches, buttons, jacks and features that weren't there when I bought them.

Man, I sure wish I had gone in the area of getting apprenticed during my school days, instead of the more typical studies I was pushing.

I really admire those that can DYI and that's one skill I wish I had.

[MCI2424]

[QUOTE=cjacek;2677024]I'm just curious, what mixers do you guys use for your 1 or 2" recorders? There is an apparent minority here with the 500 LB monster "washing machine" types and I'm just wondering as to your choice of mixers. We continually talk about TASCAM recorder this and matching TASCAM mixer that but we never get into the "pro" formats, in a serious information exchange. Surely, you can't use a typical TASCAM

I have a A&H GL3000 console.

Sounds very good and has decent pre-amps.

And, you can use a typical TASCAM console with pro format recorders. There are larger TASCAM consoles out there. The major difference in pro fromat machines is the intent and use. Studios who make their living off of recording need larger consoles to accomidate any knid of mix the client needs, Usually you see consoles (large format) with up to 50 busses. The reason is that, in the mixing stage, the engineer uses a few to a few dozen "submixes" to shape the final mix. There are plenty of techniqes like parallel compression and stem mixing that need many busses (something that many small format mixers don't have).

So, the pro needs flexability where the home recordist needs the basics.

Any mixer can be used with the pro formay tape machines, but not in a money-making environment. You have to be able to provide the client with almost any configuration possible. This is why the biggest world class studios become the biggest world class studios.

[ofajen]

Originally Posted by cjacek

I'm just curious, what mixers do you guys use for your 1 or 2" recorders? There is an apparent minority here with the 500 LB monster "washing machine" types and I'm just wondering as to your choice of mixers. We continually talk about TASCAM recorder this and matching TASCAM mixer that but we never get into the "pro" formats, in a serious information exchange. Surely, you can't use a typical TASCAM board with a 16 - 24 OTARI, MCI or STUDER, for example .. or can you?

Well, I no longer own the 1" 3M 8 track, but when I did, I did both tracking and mixing with my lowly Mackie CR-1604. It worked great! Now the Mackie has +/-15V power rails and clips promptly at +22 dBu while the 3Ms generally are capable of +28 dBu or so, so I did do two things to make life easy for the Mackie:

1) I turned up the recorder gain on the M-56 so that a level no higher than -2 dBu from the Mackie preamp direct outs would produce 0 VU on the recorder. Usually more like -6 dBu.

2) I ran each M-56 output through a -6 dB fixed pad built into an old GE hardwired patchbay, so that the mixer inputs wouldn't be overloaded by the massive tape recorder output signals.

The M-56 (like my other 3Ms) has transformered I/O, so it was easy to unbalance the signals and connect up to unbalanced inputs and direct outputs from the Mackie. Actually, I suppose the fixed pads would have been optional if the 3Ms had active balanced outputs, since I would unbalance by floating the minus leg and lose 6 dB in the process. But then the sound would be different.

Now I use preamps with hotter, balanced outputs sections that can easily drive my remaining 3M machines (2 and 4 track), so I can use +4 dBu input levels if I want, though I usually work at about 0 dBu going in to leave a little cushion. I still use the fixed pads when mixing into an unbalanced mixer that clips at +22dBu or when importing tracks into the computer's interface.

Speaking of making one's own gear, I'd like to have a little mixer for the 4-track that takes up very little space. I'm tempted to mate a couple of my little 8x1 mixers made from PAiA kits, along with some switches on the inputs to give L-C-R panning to each of the busses and make a tiny little mixer for mixing down from the 4 track to the 2-track. Actually, I have three of those mixers, so I could wire up an aux send buss, too. Hmmm... that wouldn't take too long!

Cheers,

Otto

[cjacek]

MCI2424, ofajen: Thanks for your informative replies, guys. Much appreciated!

How about the levels mismatch, -10dbv [mixer] vs +4 [recorder]? What's a good 4 - 8 channel box for this? In the real world, would the signal degrade to any appreciable level, not one that you can measure but rather hear?

Thanks again guys!

[ofajen]

Originally Posted by cjacek

MCI2424, ofajen: Thanks for your informative replies, guys. Much appreciated!

How about the levels mismatch, -10dbv [mixer] vs +4 [recorder]? What's a good 4 - 8 channel box for this? In the real world, would the signal degrade to any appreciable level, not one that you can measure but rather hear?

Thanks again guys!

I just do this sort of thing passively, through fixed pads. -10dBV is about -7.78dBu. So, if the recorder out is active balanced and unbalanced by floating the minus leg, it becomes a -2dBu level signal, so you only need about 6dB of attenuation. If it's a transformered recorder output that maintains full signal level when you unbalance, then you need about 12 dB of attenuation. If this becomes a real issue for you, rather than hypothetical, just hit me up for resistor values.

I actually found that I got better sounding results by using the padding, rather than worse, since the mixer wasn't overloaded on the peaks. Plus, I was able to use the mixer faders right in the unity gain area most of the time, which made for easier mixing.

Cheers,

Otto

[ausrock]

Soundcraft Spirit Studio 24/8 which standard is -10 but with the option of modding each pcb to give you +4.........on mine I have added switches on each channel so that I can switch between the two as my Fostex D series 16 trk is -10 and my ATR-60 1" 16 trk is +4.

[cjacek]

Ah, so it can be done! Thanks again ofajen and ausrock!

[ausrock]

QUOTE............."Ah, so it can be done!"

Well it can on the S/craft Spirit Studios.........in their wisdom, S/craft included the details in the user manual, telling you exactly which two resistors to remove to go from -10 to +4. I just removed one end of the resistors and ran them through a suitable micro toggle switch.

[SteveM]

One nice feature on the Tascam M35 is it's switchable between a -10 or 0db on the output. Which tape decks work with a 0db input?