Tuning A Snare For Recording??

[fivesixonesk8er]

Everytime I record, I never know where to start with the snare. I know how to tune all the toms and kick but when it comes to the snare, Im LOST! I know if you tune it so it sounds good to you, it doesn't sound very good recorded. Does anyone have any techniques or advice for a good sound on a snare?

[nddhc]

Dont forget to consider the room youre recording in and your actual snare drum itself. Also make sure that the heads on your snare are in good condition.


You can get all different types of sounds out of a snare drum, what are you going for?

Lower tunings will give you that kind of old Ringo type sound especially if you muffle it heavily. Higher tunings will give you a nice "crack" which is also determined by the way you hit your snare.


Its not so much that when you record a snare it sounds different on the recording than in real life. I think its just that in real life its LOUD and your ears always interpret louder as better. Start paying attention to exactly what it is you dont like about your snare on recording, then try to hear those things when youre playing your snare in your room.

Once I did this I realized that I wasnt tuning my snare as high as I wanted and that I needed a little more muffling than what I was using. Ive found that my snare sounds best with the batter side really tight and the snare-side tuned pretty tight as well and the actual snare wires fairly loose. When recording I usually have to tighten the batter side up a little in between takes

Treat your snare like you would any of your toms. Finger tighten the lugs and then tighten them 1 turn each, making sure to follow the criss cross pattern and tuning the lugs in opposites. Disengage the snare wires when you do this and tap the head with your finger about 1" from each lug making sure theres no muffling on the drum. The tone might be short but it is still there and matching the tone on each lug will really open up the sound like crazy.

good luck!

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by fivesixonesk8er

I know if you tune it so it sounds good to you, it doesn't sound very good recorded.

Really? I never heard that one. I think you should tune it so that it sounds as good as possible before you worry about anything else.

[eraos]

Originally Posted by RAMI

Really? I never heard that one.

I've heard worse. I've had someone tell me that drum tracks aren't supposed to sound good until after processing, that when you play back the overheads, kick, and snare tracks together, you shouldn't expect it to sound right.

[ez_willis]

Originally Posted by eraos

I've heard worse. I've had someone tell me that drum tracks aren't supposed to sound good until after processing, that when you play back the overheads, kick, and snare tracks together, you shouldn't expect it to sound right.

Awesome! All this time I thought I was doing something wrong! Turns out my drums are supposed to sound like shit!

[nddhc]

To get even MORE off topic...

One of my friends showed me a recording he did in a local studio of his band. The playing was terrible, instruments were out of tune, and dont get me started on the vocals...


Then I was told "It sounds bad because we didnt have money for him to mix it right"


If by mixing he means "We didnt have enough money to hire real musicians to come and replay our song" then ....


OK now lets get back on topic, sorry

[PhilGood]

Originally Posted by fivesixonesk8er

Everytime I record, I never know where to start with the snare. I know how to tune all the toms and kick but when it comes to the snare, Im LOST! I know if you tune it so it sounds good to you, it doesn't sound very good recorded. Does anyone have any techniques or advice for a good sound on a snare?

Try recording the kit with just the kick mic and the overheads. See how it sounds. It should sound good. Then add the other mics one at a time. If when you add the snare mic, it sounds bad, then try different mic placements until it sounds right.

The kit SHOULD NOT sound like crap on it's own and you should NOT expect processing to get it there. Tune it well and go easy on dampening. (I mean easy if nothing at all.) The snare should have the bottom head tuned at least a half step higher than the batter head, if not more. Snare tension should be as loose as possible without rattle.

If the kit sounds good live and sounds like crap during recording, then most likely you're using the wrong mics and also have a placement problem. Probably that the mics are too close to the drum. They have to breathe and let the sound develop before it reaches the mic.

[tmix]

I agree with Phil.

If you muffle the snare too much it will tend to sound small and void of energy. Even if you smack it hard it will tend to sound dead. The vibrancy of the upper head ringing tells your ears the drum was struck hard and the fuller tone makes it stand out more.

Your mileage may vary.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by eraos

I've heard worse. I've had someone tell me that drum tracks aren't supposed to sound good until after processing, that when you play back the overheads, kick, and snare tracks together, you shouldn't expect it to sound right.

lol.
Thats a great one. I'm going to take that advice on with everything I record from now on and end up with some really pishy results.
Cheers to whoever that was that gave me that great advice.

Priceless.
Eck

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by PhilGood

Probably that the mics are too close to the drum. They have to breathe and let the sound develop before it reaches the mic.

I second this bit of advice.
If your mics are too close to the drums then they will probably sound dead and lifeless and kinda compressed sounding.
Ever noticed how the snare in the OHs always sounds alot more alive than the close mic snare?

Eck

[RezN8]

Also try tuning and damping your snare to match the song you're recording. Consider the key of the song as well as the type of music.

Once that's worked out, then start messing with mic placement. For close miking, I like to start with a three-finger distance from the snare. Sometimes it's better to mic the side near the shell rather than above the rim. Other times it's better to point the mic at the drummer's crotch (I know, go ahead and make your jokes... ha ha ha...). Start with the overheads as mentioned above and BLEND the close mike.

Ultimately the "sound" of a snare is a culmination of MANY factors...

Who = the drummer
What = snare type, size, type of heads and the condition those heads are in (metal, wood? 14x6? 10x2?) and tuned to
Where = the room (Room acoustics play an important role, also the relationship of the snare in the room - proximity to other objects ( other drums vs. a nearby couch, walls, ceiling height, carpet, etc. etc.)
How = with what type of force, with what type of stick, where you strike the drum, ghost notes or rim shots, dead center or near the rim, etc. etc.

[ez_willis]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

I second this bit of advice.
If your mics are too close to the drums then they will probably sound dead and lifeless and kinda compressed sounding.
Ever noticed how the snare in the OHs always sounds alot more alive than the close mic snare?

Eck

How far do you keep your tom mics from the heads, and at what angle? Assuming you use mics on the toms.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by ez_willis

How far do you keep your tom mics from the heads, and at what angle? Assuming you use mics on the toms.

I mic every drum. Some people will say Im mad but from exerience I get ALOT more control at mix down.
Its going to be different in each situation, but a small difference in distance can make a big difference in sound quality.

Try starting at 2 inches away and test recording, then a bit more a bit more etc etc.
Remember you don't want to get lots of bleed in your tom mics, so I wouldn't go over board on the distance to say like 10 inches.

Eck

[Supercreep]

If the snare sounds good to your ears, but not recorded, it is because you aren't hearing the room; that's the difference between the two sounds. It sounds unnatural to your ears because you're not hearing the reflected sounds you're used to hearing - it sounds dead.

The answer? Use a room mic.

/wipes hands on pants/

[ez_willis]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

I mic every drum. Some people will say Im mad but from exerience I get ALOT more control at mix down.
Its going to be different in each situation, but a small difference in distance can make a big difference in sound quality.

Try starting at 2 inches away and test recording, then a bit more a bit more etc etc.
Remember you don't want to get lots of bleed in your tom mics, so I wouldn't go over board on the distance to say like 10 inches.

Eck

I mic every drum as well. I have my tom mics less than an in from the heads and they sound lifeless. The drums sound good but it sounds like the mics are too close. I'll move 'em back and see.

[fivesixonesk8er]

Well See, my problem is, the snare has loads of overtones recorded.... When I dampen it, it sounds dead, like a tom. When I tune it down, it also sounds dead. I have tried moving the mic farther back, but then the hi-hat just takes over the snare mic..... I have never really mic'ed the bottom head.

Does anyone gate the snare and add some reverb to fill in the cutoff sound?

[Supercreep]

I dislike gating the snare.

You want a natural sounding snare? Don't gate the fuck out of it.

Again, I think a room mic is going to give you back some of the sonic complexity you're looking for. Try compressing the room mic and adjusting it's level to taste.

40,000 penguins can't be wrong.

[Supercreep]

In case you missed the last two times I made the suggestion:


USE A ROOM MIC

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by Supercreep

In case you missed the last two times I made the suggestion:


USE A ROOM MIC

Makes too much sense.

[PhilGood]

Originally Posted by Supercreep

If the snare sounds good to your ears, but not recorded, it is because you aren't hearing the room; that's the difference between the two sounds. It sounds unnatural to your ears because you're not hearing the reflected sounds you're used to hearing - it sounds dead.

The answer? Use a room mic.

/wipes hands on pants/

I want to jump on this little gem and ask what you feel is the best placement for a room mic, as well as the mic type?

Just throw out what you do and some tips, please.

Dammit, there should be a whole thread about the importance of and techniques of room mics!

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by PhilGood

I want to jump on this little gem and ask what you feel is the best placement for a room mic, as well as the mic type?

Just throw out what you do and some tips, please.

Dammit, there should be a whole thread about the importance of and techniques of room mics!

I'd go for a nice condenser mic pointing straight at the snare. You can blend this in with the OHs, and close snare mic to get a nice snare sound aslong as you dont have any phase issues from using 2 OHs a room mic and a close snare mic track. You might need to nudge some tracks a bit to minimize phasing.

Eck

[Supercreep]

Originally Posted by PhilGood

I want to jump on this little gem and ask what you feel is the best placement for a room mic, as well as the mic type?

Just throw out what you do and some tips, please.

Dammit, there should be a whole thread about the importance of and techniques of room mics!

Everything depends on everything else - there is no formula for trial and error.

Generally a ribbon or LDC would be an appropriate choice. But even dynamics have yielded great results.

Try several locations in the room on axis/off axis. Try corners. Try boundaries. Try 3 feet out in front. Try behind the kit. You'll find someplace that works.

[PhilGood]

Originally Posted by Supercreep

Everything depends on everything else - there is no formula for trial and error.

Generally a ribbon or LDC would be an appropriate choice. But even dynamics have yielded great results.

Try several locations in the room on axis/off axis. Try corners. Try boundaries. Try 3 feet out in front. Try behind the kit. You'll find someplace that works.

What if the room has been treated somewhat to be non-reflective except beneath the kit?

[Supercreep]

Originally Posted by PhilGood

What if the room has been treated somewhat to be non-reflective except beneath the kit?

You'll have to try it and see!!

[hoops]

How many different skins did you try on the snare? Not every snare sounds good with the same skin. Not all snares sound good tuned the same way. You really have to find the natural tone of the snare. I have recorded many different snares. I have found cheap snares sound cheap and good snares sound good. Propperly tuned good snares with the right skin can sound great even with a sm57. My point is maybe you still need to play around with the snare itself as well.