2-Rooms Studio help!

[sevenways]

Hi,

I'm newbie here and Im really glad to be a member of this forums. Also, I've read some other threads and I got some knowledge from there.
Now I want to build my project studio from scratch. I got a place in my compound about 12' x 24' to build a studio.

I'll make 2 rooms, one for Control room and other for Recording Vocal, Drum, and some instruments... (drum may be electronic drums cos neibour are just 10 feets away).

So some of my questions are,
- How many hight should I make for my studio ? higher is better?
- Which room should be wider, CR or Studio?
- I will use most instruments with MIDI and Direct Line to mixer but only mic for vocal....So, 4" brick wall and Cement on both side is enough for soundproofing?

Please advice me some floor plan suitable for me. Thanks!

[bpape]

What kind of things are you going to be recording in the live room?

Concrete and brick walls are not optimal due to their acoustical properties but we can treat on top of them inside.

Room height - depends on how we break it up. 10' would be nice if at all possible.

Bryan

[Victor Man]

You have a good chance to do a decent studio with this dimentions, but let us know more about this, is it in your living room, kichen, garage or basement?

[sevenways]

Hi, Thanks for the advice and I'll write in detail with some images

btw, I would like to apologize to the forums first that I have posted same thread again and again cos my conection is so slow at that time and I click sumit buttom repeatly. And I don't know how to delete them

[Seeker of Rock]

Originally Posted by bpape

What kind of things are you going to be recording in the live room?

Concrete and brick walls are not optimal due to their acoustical properties but we can treat on top of them inside.

Room height - depends on how we break it up. 10' would be nice if at all possible.

Bryan

I would add this, though...concrete block walls are great for increasing transmission loss....in laymen terms, for keeping sound from getting out of the studio, but as Bryan points out, now there is more inside that you have to control with foam/fiberglass. A popular method would be to build "detached" finish walls ("inner leaf") inside of a massive outer structure, or "outer leaf" as many call it. Unless you are in an area where sound seeping out is not a problem, in which case keep the structure simple.

[bpape]

Poured concrete can be very good - concrete block is not so good. Also, while concrete has very good TL at most frequencies, you'll always find one or 2 in every concrete structure where it 'rings' believe it or not. That's why if you want real isolation, you float a floor. The concrete floor is a flanking path.

Seven,

If you can just answer my original questions about dimensions and usage, that would be a great start.

Bryan

[sevenways]

Hi thanks and sorry for my late reply.
In live room, I'll place one mic for vocal recording and, an electronic drum kit for any percussion sound (i'll record e-drum with direct line or MIDI to my PC).

In Control Room, I'll use amp-simulators effects for all guitars and a midi keyboard with soft-synth and PC based system. So it's not too much noise there. And I don't record any live-play band now.

And I found some floor plan on this SAE site.
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html
I think you all already know it

So, which one should I reference for my 12x24 studio ? If I have a change, I also want to make a little extra room near entrance door for customer's umbrella, shoes..etc... But I know 12x24 is too small to do it.

Thanks so much,
sevenways

[bpape]

Not at all. In fact, chopping some of the 24' off would help to minimize issues with the length being double the width. 12x21 or 12x19 would still be nice. Since you'll not be doing any real 'live' loud instruments in there, I'd keep it as all one space unless you want to use part of the 'back room' into two rooms and use one as a dry vocal booth.

Bryan

[gbondo9]

Isn't there a "Golden Ratio" or something about room sizes that you can apply?

Something like multiply room measurement #1 by 1.67, and then multiply that by 1.67 and you get a room which should be relatively balanced?

I know I read about this somewhere - but I don't remember all the details.....

[sevenways]

yes. for good sounding, i should do one room studio.
im worrying that if i do one room, the sound and noise of singer's friends in the room can annoy recording. if i do 2 rooms, they can stay in CR and singer can record easily in live room without any noise.

so, how abt this ratio; CR = 16x12x9 and LR = 8x12x9
and another one is..... CR = 14x12x9 and LR = 10x12x9
which one is better?
and though i will use e-drum pads at start, i'll later buy real drum set so i want LR enought to do it. btw, for 'golden ratio', it's only for CR or both room?

thanks

[GCR]

Originally Posted by gbondo9

Isn't there a "Golden Ratio" or something about room sizes that you can apply?

Something like multiply room measurement #1 by 1.67, and then multiply that by 1.67 and you get a room which should be relatively balanced?

I know I read about this somewhere - but I don't remember all the details.....

The Golden Section

The Golden Section is a set of ratios originally discovered by the ancient Greeks which can be used to design sound rooms. The ratio has the smallest dimension (often the height) the starting point; then the next longest dimension is 1.62 times that length (often the width); the final dimension is 1.62 times the second dimension (usually the length of the room). When a room is built using these ratios, sound in the room is incredibly even - Ideal for a studio


8' CEILING X 1.62 = 12.96' WIDTH X 1.62 = 20.99' LENGTH (8'h x 13'w x 21'l)

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by gbondo9

Isn't there a "Golden Ratio" or something about room sizes that you can apply?

There's no perfect ratio. All are a compromise. See this:

www.realtraps.com/modecalc.htm

Also, if I were the OP I'd leave it as one large room, but perhaps shorten the 24 foot length a few feet (using ModeCalc linked above) and use the extra space for storage and/or a small booth.

--Ethan

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

There's no perfect ratio. All are a compromise. See this:

www.realtraps.com/modecalc.htm

Also, if I were the OP I'd leave it as one large room, but perhaps shorten the 24 foot length a few feet (using ModeCalc linked above) and use the extra space for storage and/or a small booth.

--Ethan

Sorry to hijack this thread, but i can't seem to contact ethan by pm, or email. I just noticed that the theme tune to a(really strange) cartoon, here in the uk, reminds me of your "a cello rondo", Ethan. Here's a link to the first episode. I obviously don't mean the loud parts...

[sevenways]

thanks for the advice.
Actually i only can get 11'x23' as inner measurement. as i research, door should be place at side wall of control room. But because of my place, i have to make the entrance door at rear or front 11' wall.

and i found the link of acoustric treatment and if i place treatment like that, i don't know where do i place my door at rear wall. Should i place at corner or center? And please advice me the suitable door size.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb0...points01.l.jpg

thanks and regards,
sevenways

[sevenways]

hi
now i decided to place 3' width door like this image with 1' away from one side and 7' away from other side wall. if so, Can i place corner bass trap in this position ? any suggesstions are very welcome



Now I would make height as 10' and I'm also thinking about 1 room studio cos of some experts here advice but the door can only place at rear wall.

Thanks
sevenways

[bpape]

Straddling a rear corner with a 2x4 panel or putting in a chunk style absorber will require at least 17-24" between wall and edge of actual door. Good idea to split the difference. You'll need those corners for bass control and it's always nice to have the center of the room on the rear wall free for treatment if necessary.

If it becomes problematic, you could center the door in the back and treat the face of the door.

Bryan

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by pandamonk

i can't seem to contact ethan by pm, or email.

Click the RealTraps link under my name and go to the Contact page. Or go to my home page www.ethanwiner.com and click the email link there. Or just Google me to find the links.

I have PMs disabled in most of the forums I visit because too many people use PMs to ask me questions that are more appropriate for public discussion. If someone wants private personal consulting, I charge for that.

cartoon, here in the uk, reminds me of your "a cello rondo"

Hah, that idea is way older than my Rondo music. I stole it from the very old tune Caravan.

--Ethan

[sevenways]

Originally Posted by bpape

Straddling a rear corner with a 2x4 panel or putting in a chunk style absorber will require at least 17-24" between wall and edge of actual door. Good idea to split the difference. You'll need those corners for bass control and it's always nice to have the center of the room on the rear wall free for treatment if necessary.

If it becomes problematic, you could center the door in the back and treat the face of the door.

Bryan

Thanks so much Bryan.
According to my door location, I think I can only place corner bass trap (or) Sofa at the centre of rear wall because wall width only has 11'. And I saw some small control room has corner bass trap without Sofa and some have only sofa without corner bass trap. For my situation, which one do you suggest ?

[bpape]

You can do both. The sofa shouldn't be butted against the wall anyway - that's a horrible place to listen.

Bryan

[sevenways]

Hi,

My studio is now reach the step of making ceiling. i have satisfined with soundproofing for roof. so it's time to treat acoustic for inner ceiling.

I will make two layer ceiling, it's about 6" between two layers.
I would like to avoide parallel surface between inner ceiling and floor. Height is only 9' from inner layer to floor.

Please advice me how should I angle inner layer of ceiling? I can't found any sites about ceiling angel yet. I will make inner layer with plywood.

Btw, I can't find any diffusor-foam for my ceiling in my country.
So, angling the ceiling is the only way I can do ???

[bpape]

Do not do a double ceiling if both are hard surfaces. That can actually increase the issues with isolation.

If you want to spend some time (and money), build the 'real' ceiling at the dimension you've decided on. Then below that, build an angled ceiling (low in front, high in back with at least 1" per foot of taper - more is better) but have the visible ceiling be alternating 4" and 6" slats, 3/4" thick with 1-2" of 703 above it. Gaps to be varying from 1/8" to 1/2". This gives you an angled ceiling in terms of mids and highs and a nice broadband variable slotted Helmholz absorber for bass frequencies as the entire ceiling.

Bryan

[sevenways]

Great advice bryan really thanks you for your help. I will post some image on my next post for my recent room.

And I also need some advice on vocal booth. The wall of vocal booth should be Plywood or Pasterboard? Which one is better for soundproofing? And are they also acoustically different?

btw I'm really sorry for my too many questions. I can't get any help from my area outside (in my area, I guess 95% of studio won't do correctly and all are very lack in both soundproofing and Acoustic treatments) and more than that, I can't buy any studio design books here. So Sad. So I'm writing here for ur great advice.

[bpape]

Plasterboard is more massive - therefore more isolation friendly. Just be prepared to kill it with a lot of absorbtion in addition to have a nice dry dead booth.

Also, with the way you have it laid out, I'm assuming the entrance to that room is NOT on the front wall of the control room between the speakers - it shouldn't be.

Bryan

[sevenways]

Thanks
In my image, It's my plan for placing acoustic treatments in my control room.
I can't do room-in-room method cos of my budget .
In my image, my CR will be 11.5 x15 x9 and vocal booth will be 11.5 x8 x9.

I know my C.R acoustic treatments are not good enough in that image. My questions are,
1. What should I fill on cement wall in my C.R? Is it enough if I place DIY traps like my image ?
2. For C.R ceiling, should I place acoustic foam at everywhere?
And any suggestions for my plan ?

btw, I didn't make any acoustic in vocal/recording booth. But Im planning to place acoustic foam at every inner surface of booth.

[bpape]

I'd also plan at least a 4'x4'x2" absorber to catch the ceiling reflections and also be over your head.

Concrete does nothing for absorbtion so you'll need more than normal. I'd plan on killing the entire front wall including the door.

For a vocal booth, don't kid yourself. Thin foam will help some but not go anywhere near deep enough for male voices. Male voices can easily extend below 200Hz.

Bryan