Need advice about new home studio..

[cohn]

Hi!
I play in band, and recently we decided to start recording and in order to do so start building a home studio.
We need to record guitars, bass guitar, drums and vocals.
All recordings will be done separately and not as a session.
We want to start out alone and see how we go so at the moment we’re going to buy:
StudioPro3 monitors and a ESP1010 sound card.
We have a powerful computer, software and mics.
My question is, do we need a MIDI board if we don’t want do add effects to our music and is the sound card what we need or is there something more suitable?
The last question is do we need anything else?


Thanks a lot,
Josh

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by cohn

Hi!
I play in band, and recently we decided to start recording and in order to do so start building a home studio.
We need to record guitars, bass guitar, drums and vocals.
All recordings will be done separately and not as a session.
We want to start out alone and see how we go so at the moment we’re going to buy:
StudioPro3 monitors and a ESP1010 sound card.
We have a powerful computer, software and mics.
My question is, do we need a MIDI board if we don’t want do add effects to our music and is the sound card what we need or is there something more suitable?
The last question is do we need anything else?


Thanks a lot,
Josh

I think what you need is knowledge. You gotta read read read.

you signal chain should go:
sound source, mic, preamp, interface, computer, monitors.

For studio recording you need hi quality mics. Studios generally have large diaphragm condensers for vocals/acoustic instruments, and dynamics for drums/amps. This is a huge generalization though. For a good starter set, I'd get a Shure Beta 52 for kick/bass amp, Shure SM57 for snare/guitar amps, and a pair of Studio Projects B1s for drum overheads, vocals, etc.

You also need high quality preamps. A lot of people use a mixer for their preamps, but this is not required. You need at least a 4 channels of preamps, with at least 2 having phantom power to run the condensers. You could get 2 M-audio DMP3s, which are very decent budget pres.

The ESP isn't a great interface. Even the M-Audio Delta 1010 is better. I don't know what to suggest here. Maybe the Echo Layla 3G, which also has 2 pres, meaning you only need one dmp3(like the esi, but better).

you say you have a decent pc, what's the specs?

For monitors, it is recommended you buy monitors with at least 6" woofers. Anything less, doesn't really give you the bass you will need. For budget monitors, the Tascam vl-x5s are very decent for the price, or so I've heard. Although they don't have 6" woofers, only 5 1/4", they still have a decent amount of bass.

You will probably want to look into acoustics as well, if you're wanting your mixes to sound decent. Just search around the building and display forum for info, and read Ethan Winer's acoustics faq.

[cohn]

[QUOTE=pandamonk]I think what you need is knowledge. You gotta read read read.

you signal chain should go:
sound source, mic, preamp, interface, computer, monitors.


You also need high quality preamps. A lot of people use a mixer for their preamps, but this is not required. You need at least a 4 channels of preamps, with at least 2 having phantom power to run the condensers. You could get 2 M-audio DMP3s, which are very decent budget pres.

The ESP isn't a great interface. Even the M-Audio Delta 1010 is better. I don't know what to suggest here. Maybe the Echo Layla 3G, which also has 2 pres, meaning you only need one dmp3(like the esi, but better).

you say you have a decent pc, what's the specs? [QUOTE]


From what you’re saying if I understood correctly I don’t need a MIDI board at the moment.

You said I need Preamps. Does the ESP1010 not have? Or are they just not very good? We also use a Marshall amplifier with preamp.. Will that solve the problem?

When you say the ESP1010 isn’t great interference, what do you mean?

And my comp is DELL OPTILEX 745 dual 2 core, 2.2 GHz, 2 GB.

[knightfly]

The sound card you mentioned is a PCI card - newer computers are tending not to have PCI slots available, plus you have to open the computer and find a slot that's available, etc - you may want to consider one of the Echo audiofire cards instead. They're firewire based, so you just find your computer's firewire port and plug it in after installing the software drivers.

The echo cards come in anything from 2 inputs (with preamps) up to 12 inputs (line in's only) - the audiofire 8 has 2 pre's and 8 total in's and outs plus midi in and out - just a suggestion.

Speakers - that small a woofer won't get you very balanced frequency response - for 2-way speakers (tweeter and woofer) a 6 to 7" woofer is best. Larger than that and you get a "dip" in response between woofer and tweeter, so it doesn't tell the truth about your sound. Smaller and you miss out on low mids. In either case, for full-range sound you need a sub.

Another option, depending on your budget, is one of the newer Mackie Onyx mixers with the firewire option card for in/out. This takes the place of your sound card AND gives you several higher quality preamps. Prices run from about $1200 USD to around $1800 USD including the firewire card.

Just some options... Steve

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by cohn

From what you’re saying if I understood correctly I don’t need a MIDI board at the moment.

You said I need Preamps. Does the ESP1010 not have? Or are they just not very good? We also use a Marshall amplifier with preamp.. Will that solve the problem?

When you say the ESP1010 isn’t great interference, what do you mean?

And my comp is DELL OPTILEX 745 dual 2 core, 2.2 GHz, 2 GB.

Nah, do don't need midi.

The ESP1010 has 2 preamps, yes, but i doubt they are very good, and the esp overall isn't very good. It doesn't even offer +4dBu. Only -10dBV, which i understand is of lower quality. I don't really understand it, but even the m-audio delta 1010 offers +4dBu, and it's not great.

The Echo Layla 3G is better than the delta1010, which is better than the esp, to my knowledge. The Echo is a pci interface, which knightfly recommends against, but even the newest of pcs still include pci, as far as i know, so it's not obsolete.

The preamp amplifies the signal from the mic. Do you mean the the marshall comes with a power amp, like this?

[cohn]

Originally Posted by knightfly

The sound card you mentioned is a PCI card - newer computers are tending not to have PCI slots available, plus you have to open the computer and find a slot that's available, etc - you may want to consider one of the Echo audiofire cards instead. They're firewire based, so you just find your computer's firewire port and plug it in after installing the software drivers.

The echo cards come in anything from 2 inputs (with preamps) up to 12 inputs (line in's only) - the audiofire 8 has 2 pre's and 8 total in's and outs plus midi in and out - just a suggestion.

Speakers - that small a woofer won't get you very balanced frequency response - for 2-way speakers (tweeter and woofer) a 6 to 7" woofer is best. Larger than that and you get a "dip" in response between woofer and tweeter, so it doesn't tell the truth about your sound. Smaller and you miss out on low mids. In either case, for full-range sound you need a sub.

Another option, depending on your budget, is one of the newer Mackie Onyx mixers with the firewire option card for in/out. This takes the place of your sound card AND gives you several higher quality preamps. Prices run from about $1200 USD to around $1800 USD including the firewire card.

Just some options... Steve

Thanks for helping!
I’ve checked and I do have room for the PCI, but from what I hear sounds like the Echo is better then the ESP. If you talking about the firewire (and USB) how does the QuataFire610 compare with the other two?

About the monitors, basically I need slightly bigger and a sub, right?

And thank for the tip. But the mixer is slightly above my budget…

[cohn]

Originally Posted by pandamonk

Nah, do don't need midi.

The ESP1010 has 2 preamps, yes, but i doubt they are very good, and the esp overall isn't very good. It doesn't even offer +4dBu. Only -10dBV, which i understand is of lower quality. I don't really understand it, but even the m-audio delta 1010 offers +4dBu, and it's not great.

The Echo Layla 3G is better than the delta1010, which is better than the esp, to my knowledge. The Echo is a pci interface, which knightfly recommends against, but even the newest of pcs still include pci, as far as i know, so it's not obsolete.

The preamp amplifies the signal from the mic. Do you mean the the marshall comes with a power amp, like this?

Thanks for helping!
I meant an amplifier like this.

Bottom line the Echo is the one I should get?

[knightfly]

Right about the speakers -

IF you really mean "slightly" above budget, you can get the Onyx 1220 for $530, and the firewire card for $400, total $930 - and you don't need another sound card. The prices I mentioned earlier were for larger mixer in the Onyx series, sorry.

The cool thing about that setup is that you would have the easy option of taking the mixer along with a laptop and recording live with the same quality if you needed to - just a thought.

Panda, I know PC's still have PCI slots but I've found it's more of a hassle and less flexible than firewire, for me anyway :=)

Echo has been around longer than ESI, which I have no knowledge of - I have one of the first generation Layla's that's still a good-sounding rig, and am now using an Audiofire 8 for my video edit suite and an Indigo I/O on my laptop - both of which have never hiccuped and still sound un-colored to my ears. I'm about ready to add the Mackie Onyx 1640 (only weighs 30 lbs) with firewire card to my laptop, it'll let me record 16 tracks of 24/96 at once with an external (faster) drive, and monitor back through the mixer. Should be a sweet deal... Steve

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Geeezus Steve, I thought an aligator got ya or somethin. Good to see ya here.
fitZ

[knightfly]

More like multiple alligators, but they's payin' pretty good :=) Jeez, speakin' of which I completely forgot I was gonna pick up those monitors you were nice enough to drop off - hope they're not in anyone's way (if they're even still there) - I'm booked solid (as in, sleep's a luxury) for at least the next two weeks, maybe longer (like I said, at least the money's good)

Please apologize to your in-laws for me, I went from under the weather to under the gun!

Hope your room's getting closer, I'd love to get over sometime and check it out - meantime, take it easy... Steve

[cohn]

Originally Posted by knightfly

Right about the speakers -

IF you really mean "slightly" above budget, you can get the Onyx 1220 for $530, and the firewire card for $400, total $930 - and you don't need another sound card. The prices I mentioned earlier were for larger mixer in the Onyx series, sorry.

Thanks for the tip but I was joking about the budget...

[knightfly]

So, is the budget classified? If we had an idea of your total amount it'd be easier to recommend workable combinations of gear... Steve

[cohn]

Originally Posted by knightfly

So, is the budget classified? If we had an idea of your total amount it'd be easier to recommend workable combinations of gear... Steve

I was thinking of about 250$-300$ for sound card and about 150$-200$ for basic monitors untill we upgrade.

[elementary]

Cohn, if you aren't going to spend a good bit on monitors just yet, its probably best to invest in a decent set of headphones till you have the cash to get good monitors.
I would recommend cross referencing with your stereo speakers and be sure to turn off any bass boost or enhance settings on them.
Reference everything you mix to some commercial recordings you like.

[RawDepth]

Gee, I can see the future coming a mile away...

In a few years, there will be an unbelievable amount of used gear for sale when all of these noobs discover that they don't know how to make it all work.

No offense to the OP, it's just that I see hundreds of people on here asking what to buy and how to hook it up. (What about how to turn the knobs?)

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by cohn

Thanks for helping!
I meant an amplifier like this.

Bottom line the Echo is the one I should get?

You could get either the audiofire8 or the layla 3G. They are exactly the same except the connection and the audiofire doesn't seem to have extra adat connection, which would future-proof it a bit(you could update with an adat device).

[pandamonk]

One question... With the Layla, can you use the adat along with the analogue inputs?

[Innovations]

To return to the original question Midi does not have anything to do with effects, it has to do with the ability to use/control midi instruments or virtual instruments.

One choice that is being left out here is whether to go internal or external with the audio interface. In othwords to get a sound card or to get something like a firepod or MBox that connects via firewire or USB2. USB output is an increasingly common feature on mixers as well. I find the ability to switch computers to be very attractive since the computer is likely to break or become obsolete faster than anything else in your studio.

[knightfly]

Inno, I kind of touched on the internal/external thing above, for much the same reasons you gave :=)

Cohn, your budget would just buy the audiofire 8 or the Layla 3G with nothing else - also, I tend to agree with elementary - I think you'd be throwing money away to buy such small "monitors", I think you'd do better to spend $100 on a pair of Sennheiser 280's and use your stereo speakers (if you have them) temporarily.

On your budget, I would probably go with an Audiofire 4

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...ace?sku=245641

and a pair of senn phones

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...nes?sku=242411

If you use your stereo, do as elementary suggested and disable all tone controls, including loudness - set them up in an equilateral triangle, with the third point of the triangle being just behind your head and the speakers aimed at that point (or slightly wider). Tweeters should be near ear height, woofers should NOT be halfway between ceiling and floor but offset by at least 6" or so.

Use the phones to check individual tracks for wierd noises, etc, and the speakers to make mix decisions until you can afford some decent 2-ways with 6 or 7" woofers and a sub.

Once you start getting into this, you will likely get hooked and have more incentive to "find" the $$ for more gear :=) Steve

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by knightfly

Inno, I kind of touched on the internal/external thing above, for much the same reasons you gave :=)

Cohn, your budget would just buy the audiofire 8 or the Layla 3G with nothing else - also, I tend to agree with elementary - I think you'd be throwing money away to buy such small "monitors", I think you'd do better to spend $100 on a pair of Sennheiser 280's and use your stereo speakers (if you have them) temporarily.

On your budget, I would probably go with an Audiofire 4

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...ace?sku=245641

and a pair of senn phones

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...nes?sku=242411

If you use your stereo, do as elementary suggested and disable all tone controls, including loudness - set them up in an equilateral triangle, with the third point of the triangle being just behind your head and the speakers aimed at that point (or slightly wider). Tweeters should be near ear height, woofers should NOT be halfway between ceiling and floor but offset by at least 6" or so.

Use the phones to check individual tracks for wierd noises, etc, and the speakers to make mix decisions until you can afford some decent 2-ways with 6 or 7" woofers and a sub.

Once you start getting into this, you will likely get hooked and have more incentive to "find" the $$ for more gear :=) Steve

Haha, i didn't even realise that I'd went over budget with just the echo. I was thinking too much about what would be decent, without giving what he can afford.

Ok $600, that's about £300...

For around 4 decent channels n monitors:

SM PRO AUDIO PR4 £50($100)
M-AUDIO Delta 44 £100($200)
monitors - TASCAM VL-X5 £125($250)

with $50 left. This isn't my recommendation.


2 TAPCO by MACKIE Link USB £190($380)
monitors - TASCAM VL-X5 £125($250)

$30 over budget, again not recommended.

Anyway, 01.43... I'm sleepy

zzzzzzzzz

[Larsen]

Hi, I'm a young singer and I am new to the forum. I wish to buy some stuffs so as to get my own home studio. I have a budget of about $10,000US. I know what to buy, I mean mics, interface, monitors, etc.... but, I don't know which Makes and Models of these products to buy.

I've been in live sound for a while and I know how a JBL or Peavey stage monitor sounds like, for example. However, concerning studio recording, I don't know how the different Make sound like. I know, one would say that I should experience different stuffs so as to choose the best. The thing is that I live on a small Island called Rodrigues in the Indian Ocean and there is only one operational recording studio. Where to get experience?

So, I thought that a generally quite good gear would be OK for me. So, what is the "generally quite good gear"? Can someone help me please.

[Gorty]

Originally Posted by Larsen

Hi, I'm a young singer and I am new to the forum. I wish to buy some stuffs so as to get my own home studio. I have a budget of about $10,000US. I know what to buy, I mean mics, interface, monitors, etc.... but, I don't know which Makes and Models of these products to buy.

I've been in live sound for a while and I know how a JBL or Peavey stage monitor sounds like, for example. However, concerning studio recording, I don't know how the different Make sound like. I know, one would say that I should experience different stuffs so as to choose the best. The thing is that I live on a small Island called Rodrigues in the Indian Ocean and there is only one operational recording studio. Where to get experience?

So, I thought that a generally quite good gear would be OK for me. So, what is the "generally quite good gear"? Can someone help me please.

Behringer are cheap....but can be nasty, best to stay away from Behringer if you want decent quality!

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by Larsen

Hi, I'm a young singer and I am new to the forum. I wish to buy some stuffs so as to get my own home studio. I have a budget of about $10,000US. I know what to buy, I mean mics, interface, monitors, etc.... but, I don't know which Makes and Models of these products to buy.

I've been in live sound for a while and I know how a JBL or Peavey stage monitor sounds like, for example. However, concerning studio recording, I don't know how the different Make sound like. I know, one would say that I should experience different stuffs so as to choose the best. The thing is that I live on a small Island called Rodrigues in the Indian Ocean and there is only one operational recording studio. Where to get experience?

So, I thought that a generally quite good gear would be OK for me. So, what is the "generally quite good gear"? Can someone help me please.

Is the $10k budget for everything, including construction? What's the room(s) like? Do you need sound isolation? You'll need acoustic treatment, so that's probably the best "gear" you can get.

I'd suggest reading around and seeing what everyone likes. Typically writing a company off for a few crap bits of gear is a bad idea. Behringer are generally pretty crap, but they do have a couple of things which can be used, and used well.

The TRUTH monitors for one. Headphone amps are another. And another is their BCF2000 control surface. So don't write these off simply 'cause they're Behringer. Obviously some people have had problems with them. But i doubt there is a company which makes perfect, unfaulting, gear.

There's so many good brands, it's difficult to list them all without missing a bunch of others.

I'd suggest telling us what you need: isolation, how many channels, what you want analogue or digitial, if you want a control surface, work on the computer or through an analogue mixing desk, etc, etc, and draw a plan of your room(s), we'll critique it, and suggest how it can be improved.

If you give us all this info we can suggest what we think would be best, and the types of things you should be looking for.

[MessianicDreams]

*EDIT: this post is direct at Cohn, not the other singer dude from the Indian ocean *


Yanno, i'm gunna go out on a limb here, cause what i'm going to suggest is basically going against the grain of this forum:




If you only want to record your band and don't really have a real passion or an interest in the process, go rent a studio for a day. You'll achieve much better and more satisfying results and spend much less time doing it.

Thing is, it takes months (and years and decades!) of practice before you're stuff will sound remotely like anything releasable - or even something you'd want to sell after a gig.

My point is, if the buying the gear is simply a means to an end - don't bother! If you're not interested in it and are looking for something which is fairly quick and easy, you're looking in the wrong direction!

A few days in a "commercial studio" (used in the broadest possible sense) will get you a demo of sellable quality (if it doesn't, you went to the wrong place!). Buying the gear will get you hours upon hours of frustration and fairly poor results for quite a while. Now most people here accept that - in fact it is this that we take pleasure out of (somehow!) - but as I said if this is simply a means to an end you're looking in the wrong place.



But if you're determined to go this route, or genuinly have a passion for recording music, then great! I'll let the other guys recommend gear for ya

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by MessianicDreams

*EDIT: this post is direct at Cohn, not the other singer dude from the Indian ocean *


Yanno, i'm gunna go out on a limb here, cause what i'm going to suggest is basically going against the grain of this forum:




If you only want to record your band and don't really have a real passion or an interest in the process, go rent a studio for a day. You'll achieve much better and more satisfying results and spend much less time doing it.

Thing is, it takes months (and years and decades!) of practice before you're stuff will sound remotely like anything releasable - or even something you'd want to sell after a gig.

My point is, if the buying the gear is simply a means to an end - don't bother! If you're not interested in it and are looking for something which is fairly quick and easy, you're looking in the wrong direction!

A few days in a "commercial studio" (used in the broadest possible sense) will get you a demo of sellable quality (if it doesn't, you went to the wrong place!). Buying the gear will get you hours upon hours of frustration and fairly poor results for quite a while. Now most people here accept that - in fact it is this that we take pleasure out of (somehow!) - but as I said if this is simply a means to an end you're looking in the wrong place.



But if you're determined to go this route, or genuinly have a passion for recording music, then great! I'll let the other guys recommend gear for ya

I agree...