Reverb in headphones... Topaz 8???

[Nate74]

This is one I know has been covered in part but my search on "reverb" and "headphones" yielded more results than I could read in a lifetime...

So as I refamiliarized myself with my board for some full-band tracking next weekend, I re-learned that I never figured out how (or if I can) send some reverb to the headphone/monitor mixes.

So my question is: is that important? Is it common that you can and am I just over looking something obvious?

I'm using a Soundtracs Topaz8, but I would guess than it has basically the same routing options as just about most 24:8:2 boards...

I realize this isn't a very Hi-brow question, but the excitement has me amped up a bit for this next project... it's for my own band for a change

[The Green Hornet]

Yo Nate:

Most SIABs will let you hear reverb of choice in your cans, like on a vocal track or solo whatever. Check your manual or ask tech help.

Most units will also let you record the reverb if you CHOOSE to do so; however, it is better to record a vocal WITHOUT reverb and "add" it when you mix the tracks.

You want to make sure you only get the reverb [when you mix the tracks] WHERE YOU WANT IT.

Some patches on my synth are so well done, I seldom need to add reverb to "THAT" particular patch. However, I find vocals do well with reverb which adds presence and clarity if you don't BLAST the reverb. A little reverb goes a long way.

It's nice to hear the reverb in the cans for the vocalist as it kind of "empowers" the talent. You need to experiment with different types of reverb, delays, plates, and whatever else they're called these days and choose what you like or what your client likes.

Green Hornet

[Nate74]

Thanks man. Good point about making sure the 'verb isn't going to "tape." I looked through the manual and there doesn't seem to be any mention of effects into the studio sends. I could do some repatching I suppose and return the studio send back into a different track, add the 'verb then send that track to the studio...

Seems like there has to be an internal way to do it though...

[Nate74]

In case anybody stumbles accross this in the archives someday... here's what I think I've learned about the routing for my Topaz8.

You can select to send either the Aux3 or Aux4 into the MON mix. If the MON mix is what you're sending into the control room, that's where you can have the effects that you have patched to Aux3 and Aux4. If you route the MON send into the studio (headphones) that's where you have the effects.

It is possible to have the MON send both in the studio and the control room.

If however you opt to have the Aux1 and/or Aux2 as seperate headphone mixes sent to the studio, they can not have the effects of Aux3 or Aux4 added to them.

So for my current tracking setup I have the MON mix into the control room and the Aux1 mix going into the studio live room. The musicians don't get reverb. This allows me to mess with the mix as the recording is going on to hear various elements without disturbing the mix the performers are hearing.

For vocal recording/overdubs, I plan on using the MON mix for the headphones so I can have the option to add reverb to the headphone mix. I will use the Main Mix for the control room at that point.

Amazing what 3 hours of research and trial and error can get you...

[xstatic]

Send an aux to your reverb unit. Then return from the reverb unit back to the line input of a channel. From here you should be able to route the reverb any place you want.

[Nate74]

Nice X! That'd work and would require to much fuss. Thanks!

Of course, now your calling attention to the fact that I don't have my patchbays properly wired...

[xstatic]

It's only two cables. Hardwire them to an aux you are not using anywhere else. As a point of reference, this is kind of the standard way to route FX sends. Also try and use them on a post fade aux.

[Nate74]

X,
Cool and thanks. I've been doing so much mixing in the box lately that my memory of how my board is wired may be a little off. But seems to me I have the my Aux3 Send going to a Reverb Unit and the return going back into one of the four FX returns; allowing any channel to be routed to that unit durring mix down.

Are their advantages to returning the signal into a channel rather than into the FX return?

[Harvey Gerst]

Originally Posted by Nate74

Are their advantages to returning the signal into a channel rather than into the FX return?

Returning the signal to an unused channel lets you eq the reverb signal and send it to another effect (like a compressor) via the channel insert, if desired.

[Nate74]

Originally Posted by Harvey Gerst

Returning the signal to an unused channel lets you eq the reverb signal and send it to another effect (like a compressor) via the channel insert, if desired.

Ooof! Harvey, this is almost enough to make me transition to doing more mixes on the board

For tracking reasons, I don't see a need, but for mixing... heck you could string together couple effects this way huh? Cool. Thanks.

[xstatic]

In addition to what Harvey said, returning the effect to a channel also gives you full routing possibilities as far as aux sends and groups etc... Often times FX returns do not offer much routing and/or EQ, no insert point, often on rotary knobs as opposed to faders, and often have no way to trim or boost the input level.

[Nate74]

Good point X.

On the topic of headphone mixes, I realized at lunch that since my board can send both the AUX1 and AUX2 mixes to the headphones, I can add reverb to one (snare, vocals, overheads, guitar, etc.) and leave the second dry (kick, bass, etc.) I'd end up with the same amount of reverb on all the "wet" sources, but that should be fine for tracking purposes.

Thanks to both of you guys for really opening my eyes to some pretty cool routing options!

[xstatic]

You can taylor the amount of reverb on each channel by how much you send to the reverb unit from the channel itself

[Nate74]

Crap, I thought I had my head wrapped around this but your last suggested makes me realize maybe I don't.

Are you saying that my 'wet' AUX1 and 'dry' AUX2 can be used in combination to add varying amounts of reverb to each individual channel? I guess I'll need to set it up and play with it to see exactly how this will work

I can imagine that as I turn up the AUX1 level to add reverb to any given channel, I would need to turn down the dry AUX2 level to keep the headphone level about the same...

[xstatic]

For example, you have a mix that runs from channels 1 thru 16. We will put the reverb on aux 3. We will return the reverb to channel 24. On the reverb unit itself, I highly recommend that you set the wet/dry mix to 100% wet. For this example you could put some snare form channel 2 at about 12:00 to the reverb. Then you could take your tom channels and put them in at about 9:00 so the snare is heavier on the verb. You could also take your vocals and feed them at maybe 11:00 to the reverb. At this point your reverb returning to the console will have reverbed snare, toms and vocals. The snare would be the heaviest on the reverb with the vocals being a little behind and the toms being the least (all of this is subjective of course based on what reverb you use compared to your gain structure on the individual channels. Now you have a master return of reverb coming into channel 24. For your headphone mix we will pretend you are using Aux 1. You will build your headphone mix from the aux 1 send of each of your 16 channels. In order to add reverb to this mix, you would go to channel 24 and start turning up the aux 1 knob until you have a nice blend in the headphone mix. The one thing that you will want to avoid is using aux 3 on channel 24 because this will loop the reverb back into the reverb endlessly and if you are not ready for it will get very loud and can certainly cause damage to speakers and headphones if you do not stop it soon enough. One other thing to consider is that you should try and put the reverb on a post fade aux send. If you put it prefade when you pull a channel down in your mix it will still pass the full reverb. In post fade it will decrease the send to the reverb as the volume decreases keeping a fairly even relationship between wet and dry sounds.

This same method is also typically used for final mixdowns. This is a very standard aux routing that will help you to reduce plugin and CPU overhead as well as allow better use of outboard units.

[Nate74]

OK, I think I get it now. I guess I've always thought that by adding reverb to the channel as it was being recorded that the reverb would then "go to tape" which of course I don't want. But as I review the manual here, it seems that the TAPE OUT signal should not include any thing from the AUX1, which after my second cup of coffee makes total sense.

This is really cool and I really appriciate you taking the time to get me straightened out on this. Thanks X!!!

[xstatic]

As far as I know, there are no consoles where things on an aux send affect the direct outs, tape outs, or even group outs. There are some consoles where something liked aux 1 can be put in a mode where it becomes a variable output level for each channels direct out, but you would not be able to put anything else on that aux send in this mode. Often times though direct outputs are affected by the insert point, and in some designs are also post EQ and post fader, but aux sends are a completely seperate and independent routing path. Aux sends are affecrted by the channels insert though, in some designs track the channels EQ to their send, and on most consoles are switchable between pre and post fade.

If I were you, I would try and find some reading online or in a book that covers basic signal flow and standard routing. I think that if you were to learn more about that and understand it better, it will open your eyes to new and more efficient ways to do things, and can even help to spur some creativity once you get into chaining things, doubling channels etc...

[Nate74]

Good suggestion. I'll do some googling this afternoon when the boss leaves...

The only book I have on recording is the standard I guess, Musician's Guide to Home Recording. It's been years since I've looked at it, but may pull it out tonight. Any other sources/books you might suggest, besides a road trip to northern Utah?

[xstatic]

Actually, I will be in LA in about a week and a half. One of the bands I work for is doing the Jimmy Kimmel show and then a few days later the Anaheim House of Blues. I am going with them to mix the shows.

Then of course if the LA on your location referred to Louisiana than it is all a moot point:P

You may find some good info the Yamaha Live Sound handbook. Basic functions apply equally well to both recording and live sound

[Nate74]

Originally Posted by xstatic

Actually, I will be in LA in about a week and a half. One of the bands I work for is doing the Jimmy Kimmel show and then a few days later the Anaheim House of Blues. I am going with them to mix the shows.

Then of course if the LA on your location referred to Louisiana than it is all a moot point:P

You may find some good info the Yamaha Live Sound handbook. Basic functions apply equally well to both recording and live sound

HOB Anaheim is a fun place. Pain to load in and out though... plus you get to deal with all the folks who are "Disney Dumb" after a day at DisneyLand. I was pushing a cart full of gear to HOB one night and a lady walked into me and my cart... down went both my SWR cabs, two guitars, one floor tom (in a case) and the lady.

I've heard they let you pull cars a lot closer now though.

I'll take a look at the Yamaha book.

So when will you be at HOB and with what band? It's about 20 minutes from where I'm living now. And again thanks for your help (this time and the several previous times )

[xstatic]

I don't have to worry about the load in. I do FOH and the manager has people to do the loading. I just have to tell them where I want all the stuff. The artist that I will be with is Kalai. As of yet he is unsigned, but talks have been going well. We will be doing the Jimmy Kimmel show on wednesday June 20th, and then Anaheim House Of Blues on Saturday June 23rd. We may be opening the show on the 23rd though. I have no doubt that after Anaheim we will be back soon on a few different occasions for some showcases if no contracts have been finalized yet. Hope to see ya there