Bass guitar DI clipping

[PhiloBeddoe]

I have a friend whose recording chain for bass is as follows:

Ric bass > Sansamp Bass Driver > Presonus Firebox

He would like to record a parallel clean direct bass signal together with the effected Sansamp XLR output. The Sansamp has a parallel output that works for this, but it overloads his Presonus inputs even with the gains all the way down.

If it were my studio, I'd just engage a pad and be done with it, but his Presonus has no pad.

I suppose one possible solution is to buy an additional DI box with a pad.

Any other ideas of how to tame these levels?

Many thanks

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Has he tried simply turning the volume down on the bass itself?

G.

[giraffe]

chain another di after the 1/4 out of the sans amp, then take that xlr out (of di#2) to the "clean" channel pre.

[PhiloBeddoe]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

Has he tried simply turning the volume down on the bass itself?

G.

I'm sure that would work, but probably at the expense of some tone. Also, if you walk away for a minute or bump the volume knob you lose consistency between takes. Hard to regulate.

[PhiloBeddoe]

Originally Posted by giraffe

chain another di after the 1/4 out of the sans amp, then take that xlr out (of di#2) to the "clean" channel pre.

This is what I had in mind and suggested to him initially. Specifically I was going to suggest the Radial J48. I know he'll want something good.

[TexRoadkill]

Is the SansAmp putting out a line level signal? Is he trying to run it through a mic preamp?

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by PhiloBeddoe

I'm sure that would work, but probably at the expense of some tone. Also, if you walk away for a minute or bump the volume knob you lose consistency between takes. Hard to regulate.

How good that the tone be if it means clipping into the SansAmp? What I'm saying is that there's a possibility that a second DI - which shouldn't be required to begin with - is not going to remove the clipping if it's occuring earlier in the signal chain.

Additionally, the SansAmp has both a drive and an output level control. If the signal is coming too hot out of the SansAmp, which it sounds like it definitely is, the you gotta ask the question of where in the gain structure is the signal becoming too hot? If it's simply the ooutput level on the SA, then that has to come down. If it's the drive into the SA, then that has to come down, if it's the signal coming out of the bass itself, then that has to come down.

If the only way he can get "tone" is to run it too hot out of the bass, then it's eather more of an ear problem than a gear problem, or it's that he doesn't know how to set the SA properly. But 99 times out of 100 there should not be a good reason that he needs two DIs in one chain.

G.

[andyhix]

Originally Posted by TexRoadkill

Is the SansAmp putting out a line level signal? Is he trying to run it through a mic preamp?

Good Q. Where is he plugging in?. If it's a line level signal, he should be using the 3 or 4 (line) input on the back of the firebox, not the jacks on the front (1 or 2).

[PhiloBeddoe]

The Sansamp has a parallel uneffected output intended to be sent to an amp so it should be a near duplicate of what is coming right out of the bass. He gets the same thing when plugging the bass directly into the instrument input of the Firebox, i.e. bypassing the Sansamp.

I think he is using everything correctly. I've had basses plugged directly into the instrument input of a preamp and had to use the pad due to big string slaps. The Firebox doesn't have a pad, though the gain knobs go down to -10.

If he buys a DI, I'll probably have him put it first in the chain so he gets the cleanest possible signal. He wants me to reamp the bass and the Sansamp effected track will probably be a throwaway.

[NL5]

It sounds to me that the problem is at the source.........

[PhiloBeddoe]

Originally Posted by NL5

It sounds to me that the problem is at the source.........

OK, care to elaborate?

What about the bass or the playing could do this?

It's a mid 90s Rick 4003 bass. He doesn't use a pick. Has a strong attack, but doesn't do pop&slap style. I guess I'd say Geezer Butlerish in general.

[xstatic]

Originally Posted by giraffe

chain another di after the 1/4 out of the sans amp, then take that xlr out (of di#2) to the "clean" channel pre.

I would actually reccomend the opposite of this. Plug the bass into a standard DI first, then send the xlr to tape as the clean signal, and use the parallel (thru) on the DI to feed the Sansamp. If you put the second direct interface after the sansamp then technically that will not be as clean. The cleanest signal is the one that processes the least on the way in, so putting the second DI first seems like a better option to me.

As far as what could be going wrong, If the bass is clipping an instrument input with no gain on it, then the issue has to lie with the bass or the player. If the bass has really hot active pickups, then that is a problem with the bass itself. If the player uses technique that creates too much output then that is a problem with the player. It is not the gears fault if someone feeds it more than it is rated for. In the end, you either have to change the bass, change the way it is played or add another process inline that will bring you down to a respectable level. If you do not want to do the first two, then a DI with a pad or even an inline pad is an excellent solution.

[PhiloBeddoe]

Originally Posted by xstatic

I would actually reccomend the opposite of this. Plug the bass into a standard DI first, then send the xlr to tape as the clean signal, and use the parallel (thru) on the DI to feed the Sansamp. If you put the second direct interface after the sansamp then technically that will not be as clean. The cleanest signal is the one that processes the least on the way in, so putting the second DI first seems like a better option to me.

As far as what could be going wrong, If the bass is clipping an instrument input with no gain on it, then the issue has to lie with the bass or the player. If the bass has really hot active pickups, then that is a problem with the bass itself. If the player uses technique that creates too much output then that is a problem with the player. It is not the gears fault if someone feeds it more than it is rated for. In the end, you either have to change the bass, change the way it is played or add another process inline that will bring you down to a respectable level. If you do not want to do the first two, then a DI with a pad or even an inline pad is an excellent solution.

Thanks for this thoughtful response. I fully agree that putting the DI first would work best. Since I'll probably be reamping his clean signal, the effected Sansamp track is probably a throwaway.

The bass is an old Rickenbacker, so the pickups are passive. Maybe the strings are hitting the pickups or something. Unfortunately he's not recording in front of me so I don't know.

[giraffe]

i see what your saying about order xstatic, makes sense to have the clean one first.

and i think some people are confused a bit, he's not clipping the sans amp, the signal is passing thru the sans amp totally uneffected and going into a pre amp with no built in di which would normally step the bass down 10db (or more, allong with the impedence matching) and then there'd be no clipping.

try taking a bass, and plugging it into a modded cord that goes from 1/4 inch to xlr sometime if you want to see the output in bass vs. mic terms.
a bass just puts out more juice, and a di usually steps it down, and you never notice.

[xstatic]

I thought he mentioned that they had also tried it in an instrument input with the same problem. It is quite possible for an instrument to put out to much at full volume for an instrument input. It happens all the time which is why we have to pad DI's on occasion. If the pickups are going out or are not setup well this could certainly affect the output volume in all sorts of ways.

[PhiloBeddoe]

Originally Posted by xstatic

I thought he mentioned that they had also tried it in an instrument input with the same problem. It is quite possible for an instrument to put out to much at full volume for an instrument input. It happens all the time which is why we have to pad DI's on occasion. If the pickups are going out or are not setup well this could certainly affect the output volume in all sorts of ways.

The Presonus Firebox (and I think Firepod too) has dual mic/instrument jacks on the front. XLR with a 1/4" in the middle. The line level inputs are separate on the back.

I suspect not having a pad is just one of those design compromises of the Firebox. It seems to be a decent unit overall though.

[xstatic]

Can you address the Fireboxes levels from some sort of Firebox control panel? If so you may be able to variate the gain from there to keep the input signal from overloading.