how can someone clip a mastered track

[ikijapan]

I don't understand what people are talking about when they say like U2s new album is clipping all over the place, or Rush's new album is clipping here and there?

I thought anyone with a limiter could push something through it with no clipping? How does this clipping occur on these major label releases, and how do you know that it's occuring (do you hear it? or can you measure it?)

[TexRoadkill]

The clipping occurs at the limiting stage. Clipping doesn't have to be a loud distortion. It simply means you are chopping off the top of the waveform or clipping it.

Load up a song into an audio editing program and if all the peaks are slamming right up into the top of the graph then it is clipping.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_%28audio%29

[RedStone]

I would say that most likely, perceived clipping in modern major label recordings is the result of

1) converting them to mp3, where the band-pass filters used in the conversion produce actual clips over 0dBFS if the material is pinning Full Scale most of the time.

2) the distortion you get from fast attack compression followed by brick-wall limiting over a mix - in some genres like punk, this is actually desirable grit.

and/or

3) when you are listening to a recording that has an average level of -3dB RMS through anything less than extremely expensive DA converters - you're gonna hear a whole world of crappy distortion, even if there aren't any actual clips in the recording itself.

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

They may have clipped the AD converters in mastering, which means they sent it from the computer to the analog world, and then on the way back into the computer they made the signal go above 0db at the converter, in order to chop off the peaks and make the song much louder. Many prefer doing this instead of using a limiter, it maintains the spectral balance of the mix better. Some think this sounds much harsher than limiting.

[FALKEN]

I have heard store-bought CD's that straight up CLIP NASTY, mastered in very expensive, highly respected mastering houses. it's disgraceful. I can't believe the bands even accepted the masters that way.

[ikijapan]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

I have heard store-bought CD's that straight up CLIP NASTY, mastered in very expensive, highly respected mastering houses. it's disgraceful. I can't believe the bands even accepted the masters that way.

Well, I don't get it. I thought that almost every album is limited to some respect. And I thought limiting was different somehow than clipping. So, what's the difference between limiting and just running the signal too hot or something.

I mean, would there be a difference between recording a guitar cab WAY to hot and have it digitally clip, versus recording it at -18 db and then limiting it a bunch?

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by ikijapan

So, what's the difference between limiting and just running the signal too hot or something.

Limiting is like high-ratio compression (10:1, 20:1, even 40:1) with fast attack and hard knee. As such, it really doesn't just slice off the top of a waveform like a military crew cut the way that clipping does. It's sometimes a subtle difference, sometimes not so subtle, but it is a difference.

And the fact that there is so much destruction of dynamics via hard limiting and makeup gain in many of today's commercial releases doesn't make it any better of an idea that the intentional clipping that an increasing number of commercial releases also use. They both sound like horseshit.

G.

[ikijapan]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

Limiting is like high-ratio compression (10:1, 20:1, even 40:1) with fast attack and hard knee. As such, it really doesn't just slice off the top of a waveform like a military crew cut the way that clipping does. It's sometimes a subtle difference, sometimes not so subtle, but it is a difference.

And the fact that there is so much destruction of dynamics via hard limiting and makeup gain in many of today's commercial releases doesn't make it any better of an idea that the intentional clipping that an increasing number of commercial releases also use. They both sound like horseshit.

G.

OK, that's what I thought. Then, let me ask a subjective question that's been stuck in my mind...

Is it almost a given to do SOME limiting? Maybe it's just because I am way too inexperienced, but I like the way things turn out when I don't limit AT ALL on the stuff I do. Only problem is, of course when I A/B it to a louder release it's kind of embaressingly quiet sometimes. I mean, does a mastering engineer ever go, "hmm, this sounds great as is, I'm not going to limit it at all". I'm thinking the answer is no. Well, besides classical or jazz or something, let's leave that out of the question.

I guess what I am wondering is whether mastering engineers try to avoid limiting by using more mild compression first, or if it's just a given that we're gonna be throwing it through the limiter to get it as loud as reasonably possible.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by ikijapan

Is it almost a given to do SOME limiting?

Before 1990? No, there were no "givens". In another few years it may go back that way. Right now we're stuck in a miserable fashon swing where yeah, you could almost say it's a given. The good news is that swing is just peaking and is starting to swing back. In another couple of years dynamics will be back in fashon again.

Originally Posted by ikijapan

Maybe it's just because I am way too inexperienced, but I like the way things turn out when I don't limit AT ALL on the stuff I do.

Half of that may be that you have good ears, half of it may be that you're trying to push your tracking harder than it will go.

It's unfair to yourself to try and compare your stuff to a commercial release. They just have waaaay to much of an advantage over you in initial tracking quality and gear quality that allows them to mangle their productions a lot farther than you or I will be able to in most cases.

Is your stuff going on the radio in a market any larger than 1,000 people? If not, then don't worry about the volume difference, it's irrelevant. If you are going commercial, then go to a studio and pay to have it done right.

In the meantime, respect the music and go with what sound BEST and not what sounds LOUDEST. You can always turn it up yourself on playback if you want to.

Originally Posted by ikijapan

I guess what I am wondering is whether mastering engineers try to avoid limiting by using more mild compression first, or if it's just a given that we're gonna be throwing it through the limiter to get it as loud as reasonably possible.

If MEs did what they wanted, frankley we'd never have the Volume Wars we have these days; 19 out of 20 pro MEs that I have talked to or read hate the current mo' louder mo' better volume craze. Problem is on commercial releases the MEs are employees more than they are managers. They are doing more of what someone else wants them to do than what they prefer.

G.

[LeeRosario]

well there's a double catch here....


It is possible to clip without hearing the effects. It ends up being a squared off waveform, more than likely as a result of some type of brickwall limiting. Up until about the early to mid 90s, it was unheard of to take it that loud.

Now it's the norm for reasons that are debatable..

Some processors do it better than others, but it's still achieving the same thing. Then of course there's the clipping with the horrid popping and clicking.

The complete shit job if you will.

The U2 thing isn't a surprise really, I mean the loudness war has been going on for a while now. Technology is at the point where we can smash things and somehow it comes out somewhat listenable.

Bob Ludwig talks at great length about the epidemic of smashing things in order to bring them up in apparent loudness. However, you lose tons of dynamic range when you do that. You can also lose punch, transparency, transient information (like snares, toms, kick, etc).

But that of course comes to the mastering stage. I should never mean that you're smashing things prior to that. Most mix engineers don't really have the right setup and experience to pull that off. If you'd want to address that question for the mastering engineer, then he/she should be able to feed your curiousity better.

In my honest opinion, I see it as a false high with alot of work out there. You can smash the song all you want, and it may sound all badass in the moment, on a few sets of speakers.

However, in the long run you find out that it's restricted, it's just too much pushed upfront, it's hard yet unrelenting in weakness.

It's like trying to play B-ball in a room with 8ft high ceilings.