Live synth

[iancl]

Could someone recommend a cheap synth keyboard for me?

I saw the microKORG, which seemed cool, except for the max 4 polyphony.
I've now looked at the Roland SH-201, which seems more like what I want, but seems a bit basic?

All I need is the actual synth sound, and the keys to play it on, and effects, preferably with mod+pitch wheels.

I DON'T need drum beats, rhythms and stuff like that, since it is for a live band, with a live drummer. I expect almost everything these days has that sorta stuff, but I'm just saying, I don't need that, and would prefer to save money and not have it.

I'd like EASY to change attack, resonance, release and stuff. I'd also like very quick voice-selection: don't want to have to flick all the way through a massive menu in the middle of a gig. Ultimately 8ish 'memory' buttons would be good. Foot-pedal would be great.

An input which can be played on the keyboard (like the vocoder) would be a bonus, but isn't vital. If so, would prefer XLR. Would like stereo outputs.

Basically, a keyboard with good (very synthy, not too fussed about realistic instruments) sounds which can be changed live very easily. What options do I have?

Thanks a lot

EDIT: MM-6 looks like it might be the right kinda of thing, at the right price. Has the performance memories etc. What are the sounds like on this thing? (Can't tell from the lo-fi online material i've found on places like youtube!). Also, in other synths you recommend, I'd be keen on anything with audio play-back, where you can load short samples, and assign buttons to play them, but I think it might be more worthwhile spending money on something specifically designed for that!

[dafduc]

I have an old Novation K-Station that does a lot of what you want. Knbs and sliders galore. Only two octaves, though, and a bit flimsy. You might also check out the Alesis Ion - good sounds and interface.

What is the SH missing that you want?

[anppilot]

Just my $.02, but I would opt for a used JP-8000 since you can get them for about $400-$600 these days.

And if you already have a controller, you can find used Virus A's for $500-$600 too.

JMHO

Peace

[iancl]

Thanks guys... hard to find used stuff here in Aus. Also, would like the comfort of warranty.

Alesis is out of the price range (at least here). The SH-201 may have all we need, but haven't tested it, and the layout is quite different from standard. I think the way it's organised although it "makes sense" is fairly useless and impractical. But i'll try it and see I guess!

Info on the MM6?

[anppilot]

201 is a cheezy toy. I'd rather use a casio cz than that 201.

[iancl]

Could you expand on that? It does seem a little cheesy and toyish, but as long as it's usable and has good sound, I'm not too fussed by the IDEA of it. Are you saying it isn't usable and/or doesn't have good sound?

[anppilot]

I think that the sounds are very thin and well, "toyish" by toyish i mean it sounds like a cheap casio home synth of the 80's to me, it doesnt sound ROLAND to me. I have used roland stuff for years. It trys to emulatr Rolands older synths, and to me it gets a F.

look at this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_23HV_MNnoM

CRAP !!!

Maybe it will blend in well enough with your band, you might not know its crap.

I see people gig with it, and when they bring it on stage, people laugh.

Yes, its that bad.

SHAME SHAME on you roland for putting the designator "SH" in front of that keyboard.

This is as bad as them bringing the "JUNO" name back with the "D" and "G"

poor poor real juno series. It must be rolling over in its grave shaking its head.

what the heck is roland thinking? Their days are numbered. The Fantom XR series will be Rolands last greatest thing. I predict they have already started their downward drop to oblivion.

[DavidK]

Originally Posted by iancl

Info on the MM6?

I like mine quite a bit.

The main fault for me is that it doesnt have many usable patches IMO. It has bread and butter sounds that are excellent like the motif piano, decent synth leads, decent strings etc. It is VERY easy to use, perhaps the easiest I have owned and I have owned a lot. It is REALLY light, it feels like a prop. Seems sturdy enough although I dont gig on keys so it never leaves my studio.

Its a very good buy. It has split/layer modes, a nice arpeggiator, etc. It doesnt have much in the way of ambient soundtrackish sounds. It is laid out very well, its also a lot of fun to play with the drum patterns. They arent as usable as they are fun, I just switch em on and mess around. The real time knobs work very well. Me likey a lot, I am very glad to have it.

[anppilot]

I played with it for a bit. Sounds are thin to me, and I'd be afraid to beat on it hard gigging.

I loved my XP-30, JV90 and S80 when I used to gig

[DavidK]

Originally Posted by anppilot

I played with it for a bit. Sounds are thin to me,

You can hear it for yourself on this: Sicilienne I did this when I first got it.

[TragikRemix]

201 sounds pretty cheesy just from that there video IMO.

his groovebox sounded like crap too though.

i ask myself, why??? the technology! why cant roland make a better sounding piece? why is it still that 80's total fake sound?

[anppilot]

Originally Posted by TragikRemix

i ask myself, why??? the technology! why cant roland make a better sounding piece? why is it still that 80's total fake sound?

YES YES YES !!!

That is what I have said. What is with roland these days?

Using the "juno" brand name and associating it with crap boards like the "G" & "D" WTF?

U GOT to be kidding.

Associating the 808 with a "MC" as in MC-808? Ok this isnt TOO bad.

Even my JP-8080 isn't too bad, but the V-Synth? Its ok, but I feel WAaaaaaaaaaay over priced.

Example. the "mighty" VP-9000 variphrase. Rolands time stretching sampler.... WTF? Again the MSRP over $2k at first.


There are companies still trying to dump them to gain prescious storage space back - and theyre selling for $400. You can buy it used for $150-$250 if you search Craigs List.

i H O P E someone from roland is on this forum and can answer this: Are you trying to commit suicide?

WHAT in Heavens name is going on with you?

If Im gonna pick a bone with my favorate company, i might have to pick a few so here it goes.

It started with the 1080. great sounds. then the 2080. 1 more bank of sounds and more efx?

Ok not to bad but the 3080? then 5080?

3080 = glorified 2080 plus new sounds. 5080 slightly modified 2080 with sample playback? PLAYBACK? Why not RECORDING?

OH cause the fantom was in the works also....ah.

the only useful thing out of the:
1080/2080/3080/5080

is the 5050 ! Thats right I said the 5050. Period. Its a 5080 with more sounds, minus the sample playback crap.

Oh, a real module.

I am saying this because I am a roland NUT. But your going to seriously lose customers if you keep up this crap.

I understand roland wants to make their stuff to the home hobiest - wait why? why make low end stuff? Dont they realize that by bringing the quality of their products down they are ruining their own name?

Bottom line. IMO, a Fantom XR keyboard or rack is the only thing needed from roland these days + a Vsynth + a MV-8800. Am I missing something?

So there you go in my opinion, a Fantom, Vsynth & MV-8800 is the only thing you need from roland.


Please Please Please enlighten me if I'm leaving anything out.

[iancl]

I guess that leaves me with the Yammy :-P

Looking at it, it does seem like the right choice.

Just a couple of questions:
I can't load my own sounds onto it can I? Seems to only be ROM.
Is it possible to export midi sounds? I don't know anything about this, but I know some keyboards can export lists of MIDI definitions, and some can't (when I say I KNOW that, I mean, that's what I thought :-P ).
How much of the sound is MIDI and how much is Wave? And what? It says it has 540 wave sounds, but it also has MIDI right? What do the real time controllers control?

Don't slaughter me, I'm new with this stuff :-)

[DavidK]

Originally Posted by iancl

I can't load my own sounds onto it can I? Seems to only be ROM.

Correct. You can do minor adjustments to sounds and save them, but basically you are stuck with the sounds it comes with.

How much of the sound is MIDI and how much is Wave? And what? It says it has 540 wave sounds, but it also has MIDI right?

Midi is a language, all keyboards are midi. As for the sounds, they are sample playback i.e. they use raw waveforms and mess with em to get them right. These types of keyboards are commonly nicknamed "ROMplers", and the ones like a microkorg would be VA (virtual analog).

Is it possible to export midi sounds? I don't know anything about this, but I know some keyboards can export lists of MIDI definitions, and some can't

Your terminology is a bit off, but its basically like this:

MM6 is a "love it or leave it" synth. It comes with sounds and you play them, if you dont like them, well, you shouldnt have bought it. It is not a true synth as far as editing, it has very little. The sounds are top-notch, its a great sounding keyboard and worth it for the pianos alone. However, you can only adjust things like reverb, arpeggio styles, etc. You cant go in there and "program" crazy synthy sounds, think of it as a playback machine.

What do the real time controllers control?

Cutoff and resonance filters control the timbre i.e. you can turn them in real time and sounds get brighter. The attack and release are good for something like a harmonica patch where you want to imitate breath articulations. The knobs are pretty cool, they also control softsynths and other synths.

MM6 has some decent controller functions for playing softsynths. It transmits on 3 midi channels, meaning you can play 3 other synth sounds, in addition to 3 on the MM6 so you can have 6 sounds going on. Alone, the split and dual are pretty cool and easy to use. When you get patterns going, split/dual and arpeggios going at the same time, you can make a LOT of noise. I gotta say, its been a lot of fun for a classical guy like me to play with the patterns. You'll love it.

[iancl]

Thanks. So are you saying none of the keyboard is audio (wave) based? I was under the impression it was.

Also, when transmitting midi, you mean from the midi output right? And that would be defining the pitch, and velocity, but not the actual timbre right?

[DavidK]

Originally Posted by iancl

Thanks. So are you saying none of the keyboard is audio (wave) based? I was under the impression it was.

?

Yes, there are wavs involved as opposed to synthesis like the Roland SH01 or the Microkorg. Its semantics, I wouldnt call it "audio based" but yes there are samples that are used.

Also, when transmitting midi, you mean from the midi output right? And that would be defining the pitch, and velocity, but not the actual timbre right?

Timbre can change too when you turn the knobs. Turn a knob right and things get brighter, turn it left and they mellow.

[iancl]

Yes, so are the knobs changing the sound of wave samples, or of the midi sounds? Sorry, just referred back to your post before and you said that "they use raw waveforms and mess with em to get them right".

And I was refering to when you said

Originally Posted by DavidK

It transmits on 3 midi channels, meaning you can play 3 other synth sounds, in addition to 3 on the MM6 so you can have 6 sounds going on.

So what's coming from the line output of the keyboard - samples, with effects and whatnot, or the midi sounds?
Then when transmitting midi (via midi output), is the midi sound definition sent, or is just the note sent? I guess that's a general midi question, not just for this keyboard.
And is it also possible to transmit midi through the USB on this model? Say for recording to a computer. If not, I can buy a midi-to-usb cable right?

Thanks for all your help so far, it's been great, I hope you can bear with me here!

[DavidK]

Originally Posted by iancl

Yes, so are the knobs changing the sound of wave samples, or of the midi sounds? !

Midi makes no sounds. Midi is a language for computers and synths to communicate. It is a series of "note off, program change" commands, but it has nothing to do with sounds. The synth engine makes sounds, and you dont have to even use the midi.

The knobs change the timbre of the "patches". There are eight categories like Pianos, Strings, Brass etc. You pull up a piano patch, if you want it brighter you turn a knob. Thats really about it.

If you play Keyboard in a band you may never use midi. You only use midi if other machines are involved like computers or synth modules. By itself, midi has nothing to do with anything.

And is it also possible to transmit midi through the USB on this model?

Yes. Almost all new keyboards have that feature.

Then when transmitting midi (via midi output), is the midi sound definition sent, or is just the note sent?

Just the note you play, not the music. You can have your MM6 playing organ and send to something playing a drum patch, its just note on and off stuff.

[iancl]

OK thanks. I think what had confused me in the past was that I thought it was making the audio by a sort of algorithm, and a 'piano' sound would have a certain algorithm to calculate what each note would sound like. So I thought when sending midi, you could send the note, the velocity, and also the description of the timbre.

If you don't understand what I mean... GOOD ... I was wrong
If you do, cool.

But anyway, point is, I now get it. Not that it actually makes any difference to HOW I use midi, but it's always nice to understand what's going on.

Thanks for all your help!

EDIT: SORRY!!! one last thing which I brought up before, and didn't get answered - can this particular keyboard send the patches list to other hardware? e.g. could I use the keyboard's voices for stuff on the computer?

[DavidK]

Originally Posted by iancl

EDIT: SORRY!!! one last thing which I brought up before, and didn't get answered - can this particular keyboard send the patches list to other hardware? e.g. could I use the keyboard's voices for stuff on the computer?

It doesnt quite work like that. The computer is capable of "playing" the keyboard via midi. So I guess the answer is YES/ , its just an overall terminology gap. Midi is as much of a concept as it as a language, once you get it, its very easy. In a program like SONAR, there are instrument definitions. When I sequence many parts, I never touch the MM6. You do it all on the computer, you pick your patches there and it plays the correct ones on the synth.

[iancl]

Yeah, I get that, but does the keyboard have to be plugged in, or is it possible to save its definitions onto the computer?

[DavidK]

Originally Posted by iancl

Yeah, I get that, but does the keyboard have to be plugged in, or is it possible to save its definitions onto the computer?

You get the definitions on the internet. They dont come with it, for some dumb reason. Nothing has to be "saved" anywhere, the definitions list the patches, you choose the one you want and thats it.

There is very little saving needed with the MM6. It is literally plug and play. It comes with Cubase LE too. You can save performances ( like splits, layers and patterns) but thats really about it.

[earthboundrec]

haven't been reading all of the replies here, BUT, I'd give a thumbs up on the SH201. It's a real synth, that's infinitely tweakable. I think it uses analog modelling, which isn't as cool as having a true analog synth, but really how hard is it to digitally create good sine, square, saw, and tri waves? I think the synth sounds HUGE if you make it. If you're looking for a real synth and not a sound module, I think this would be an excellent choice. I also own a Roland Juno106, Juno 60, and Jupiter 6 so I've got a good handle on Roland's classic synth sounds.

[iancl]

Originally Posted by earthboundrec

haven't been reading all of the replies here, BUT, I'd give a thumbs up on the SH201. It's a real synth, that's infinitely tweakable. I think it uses analog modelling, which isn't as cool as having a true analog synth, but really how hard is it to digitally create good sine, square, saw, and tri waves? I think the synth sounds HUGE if you make it. If you're looking for a real synth and not a sound module, I think this would be an excellent choice. I also own a Roland Juno106, Juno 60, and Jupiter 6 so I've got a good handle on Roland's classic synth sounds.

Yeah it's just gonna come down to whether or not we actually need a true synth or a keyboard with editable sounds.
I know the SH-201 is at the local store, so we'll try that out, and hopefully they can get in the MM-6 too. They've got more, but none of them really suit.
Ultimately it's not up to me - I'm not gonna be playing it, but the guy who will is gonna be coming along with me.
Thanks everyone :-) It's just gonna be about working out what's required, and then what's available.

[DavidK]

Originally Posted by iancl

Yeah it's just gonna come down to whether or not we actually need a true synth or a keyboard with editable sounds.

Ultimately you will find that you can never have too many.

I played the Roland for just a few minutes and I thought it was pretty damn nice myself. The one flaw for live might be the lack of a large LCD screen. Its more of a "mad scientist" synth for experimenting, but it could certainly do plenty live. The MM6 is excellent for realistic sounds, but it doesnt have many mad scientist patches ( it has a few). I wouldnt mind having the Roland, and I liked the fact that it has 61 keys.

In that price range there is also the Korg X50 which is a very nice keyboard. I dont think anyone makes bad keyboards in 2007. The only ones I dont like are the Alesis QS series ( dont like the sound) and the microkorg ( lil baby keys ). Other than that, there are a lot of excellent keyboards out there.