About to buy a Tascam 38: Questions from a Newbie

[Timothy108]

Hi folks, this is my first post - i'm sure the first of many as I embark on an analog recording project this year. I've enjoyed reading all the posts in this Analog section and have found it very inspiring...there seems to be a great community here.

I'm looking at buying a Tascam 38 8-track and hope to combine it somehow with my computer (using Cool Edit Pro). I've done a lot of recording on my 4-track Tascam 414 mkII as well as in Cool Edit, but the 8-track reel-to-reel is completely new to me. Basically I love the sound of tape, but I need more than the 8 tracks. Where should I start? This may sound silly, but all I can think of is doing bed tracks on the Tascam, dumping those into Cool Edit somehow (individually? Is it possible?), recording a basic mix of those tracks back onto the Tascam as a reference to record more overdubs....I want to do all of the recording on the Tascam and maybe use Cool Edit to store the tracks and mix them later. Can it be done?

Obviously, I am also wondering about tape sources. What type of 1/2" tape should I be sourcing for the Tascam 38? Where's the best place to find it? This machine would also come with some used tapes...perhaps I can use some of those.

The owner claims that the Tascam is in good shape, and this is what he says about it:
"Hi Tim the unit was used right up to the point where I switched over to Computer recording and it was continually kept clean and demagnetized. The last time it was used a glitch showed up with Ch # 2 and I discovered it to be a loose circuit board which I reseated (resealed?) and it appears to Ok now. The Tapes I have go with it and some of them have no miles at all on them. The Recorder has been in the Case for the last 4 years and not even opened."

He's offering the Tascam for under $300. Does this sound trustworthy to any of you? What else should I ask the owner? What should I be looking for when I go to see the machine before buying it?

There's a lot here, if you have suggestions for any of it, I would be forever grateful! I hope there's some way of avoiding total reliance on Cool Edit Pro...I have a chance at making a quality indie record, albeit low-budget, and tape is what comes to mind. Thanks in advance!

[Good Friend]

Indie? INDIE?!?

ah just kidding

When you go to his house make sure you look at the heads and make sure the machine isnt making any obviously bad sounds internally like grinding noises. Sometimes no use at all can be worse than use. Just because it sat doesnt mean its in good shape. Try recording a cd to all channels and listen to playback levels and all that. Then if everything is good and you buy it, still replace the belts and pinch roller, and clean and demagnetize. Count on the machine to at some point need service or replacement parts and you wont be all mad when it happens. I am no expert whatsoever, but i was in your same boat awhile ago, and these couple of things are what ive learned so far.

Oh yeah and if the dude isnt cool enough to let you record a couple tracks and check it out he isnt worth buying it from. Anyone who knows what is at stake when purchasing an older reel to reel will understand that you want to check it out before you buy it. Also, if he knows what they go for on ebay in the condition he is describing than he is selling low, by the way. Which isnt a for sure indication of anything, but just know that.

[The Ghost of FM]

Originally Posted by Timothy108

There's a (lot of questions), here, if you have suggestions for any of it, I would be forever grateful!

That's an understatement!

First off, the 38 was designed to run on Ampex/Quantegy 456 tape. You can also use RMGI 911 as an available and good quality substitute. So long as the previous owner didn't re bias the machine to run on a different formulation, you should be good.

Try to avoid using old tapes. Many of them suffer from Sticky Shed Syndrome which happens to tapes that are improperly stored and they end up making a mess of your heads and can bring the entire transport to a halt from the friction. Use new tape only!

The seller doesn't mention how much usage the deck has seen or if he is the original owner or how worn out the heads are...these are all important questions to ask as head re lapping is an expensive procedure.

The seller also doesn't say anything about dbx noise reduction units coming with the machine. The 38 was designed to work best with them as 8 tracks on half inch tape can benefit from that. If they're not included, and I suspect they're not, it means more stuff you have to hunt down.

Speaking of more stuff, you'll also need a mixer to do your basic tracking. You didn't mention if you had one. The 38 is not a self contained unit like a Portastudio would be. It's a component of a recording system and many other pieces of gear come into play to make it all work...things like outboard compressors, gates, multi-effect units, EQ's and so on all make up the recipe for tracking in analog.

The price he offered you is a decent one but not if the machine doesn't work. Machines that sit in storage unused for years on end can run into trouble because rubber parts like belts and pinch rollers can dry out, crack, stretch and basically fall out of spec which means service and more money. Switches and pots can also become intermittent from age, non-use and oxidization. Basically, equipment is made to be used, not mummified.

As for transferring works done on the 38 to your computer, there are a number of sound cards out there with 8 or more analog inputs for direct transfer to edit and mix down so check out the digital areas of the BBS for the flavor of the month on that jazz.

Did I miss anything?

Tough!

Cheers!

[Timothy108]

Haha...yeah I guess "indie" is a pretty redundant word around here, since we're all talking about home recording to begin with. I just finished an application for a government grant to make this recording and my head is still full of all those gimmicky catch phrases they wanna hear.

Thanks so much for your help, Ghost and GF....totally invaluable advice here! I'm really glad I asked, I wouldn't have known to look for those things on the 38 before buying it. No mixer or noise reduction units are included, but I've found someone else here in Halifax selling a Tascam M30 (for $150), which I understand goes pretty well with the 38. I guess the search is on for noise reduction...anything in particular to watch out for?

I just heard back from Splicit about tape and they said the same thing: RMGI 911...I'm definitely going with that.

Thanks again for sharing your awesome analog wisdom!

[The Ghost of FM]

I guess the search is on for noise reduction...anything in particular to watch out for?

The matched units for the 38 at the DX-4D dbx type I professional noise reduction units which have 4 channels of processing per unit and usually sell for around 100 dollars a piece on the used market...you'll need two of them and a whole bunch of RCA patch cords to hook it up to the mixer.

The M30 is a decent enough mixer but it lacks phantom power for condenser microphones so you might want to consider something newer and cleaner/quieter like an M308B which would sell for around 300 dollars, again used, but much nicer over all.

Cheers!

[Ding Dong]

do you really need NR? i dont use it on my tsr8... is the 38 a noisier machine?

[The Ghost of FM]

Originally Posted by Ding Dong

do you really need NR? i dont use it on my tsr8... is the 38 a noisier machine?

No. It's not a noisier machine.

It depends on the type of music you record to a degree but noise is cumulative so the more tracks you have, the greater the potential for objectionable tape hiss.

dbx noise reduction will also improve other factors beyond noise, such as print through, headroom extension without distortion and a flatter frequency response because it allows you to record at lower levels where all of those factors benefit.

But, if you're just recording "balls to the walls" head banger kind of stuff, you could probably get away without it.

It's not a carved in stone kind of thing, noise reduction; to each his own.

Cheers!

[_DK]

Originally Posted by Ding Dong

do you really need NR? i dont use it on my tsr8... is the 38 a noisier machine?

TSR8 already has NR built-in.
I never use NR, it makes everything sound a bit dull.

[A Reel Person]

as long as the recording methods you use print a solid and strong signal to tape, the need for dbx is minimal. However, dbx is a nice addition to the 38, if you can get it.

The M30, M35, M308 or M312 would be fine "starter" boards to pair with the 38. Calling them "starter" boards is probably a misnomer, though, as these mixers have plenty of capability to support your studio efforts almost endlessly.

[bloomboy]

Another good mixer alternative is the tascam m-208, which is very similar to the m-308 but significantly cheaper. It doesn't have phantom power, but that won't be a problem if you're only using it for the output from the recorder (in other words if you've got a separate mixer or preamp or something that you're using for input to the tape recorder). I've been tracking on a tascam 38 and m-308 for the past year and I love it.

A few other things to consider:

I started recording analog with pretty much the same ideas in mind as you (I was going to track on tape and then edit digitally) but I found that even after one bounce the tape sounded so much better than the digital, and ended up just sticking with tape. Keep in mind that even if you bounce each signal no more than once, you can get waaay more than 8 tracks on a hi-fi 8 track like the 38 if you plan ahead (record instruments on tracks 1-6 and bounce to 8, record 1-5 and bounce to 7, etc.) If you make sure not to complicate your signal chain more than is necessary and record fairly hot, without NR there will be more noise than with digital but still not nearly enough to be annoying, at least in my opinion. The noise I get recording about 30 tracks total on my 38 is still only about 1/4 of the fan noise I used to with digital just from having my computer on in the same room.

Also, maintainence is really, REALLY important. I can't stress this enough. The manual for the 38 says something like "clean the tape path before each session. Clean the tape path after each session. If you take a break during the session, clean the tape path." This will influence the quality of the recordings you make tremendously, and can triple the amount of recording hours you can get out of the heads before they will need to be relapped.

Finally, unless there's something really, really wrong with the recorder (heads are visibly covered in rust, it won't turn on, it sets on fire when you turn it on, etc.) for $300 I'd get it. Just being able to look at it before you buy it is worth a lot IMO- I bought my 38 from someone on this forum, which I felt pretty secure doing, but I have also bought two tape recorders advertised as "mint" on ebay- one arrived missing a reel hub and the other was broken in just about every way a tape recorder can be broken. It's pretty safe to assume that you're going to have to add about 3-500 dollars to whatever you pay on ebay to get the recorder back to spec. also, don't pay more for a recorder that was recently calibrated if it's going to be shipped- odds are it'll be knocked out of alignment in transit anyhow.

cheers,
theo

[Timothy108]

Wow, thanks so much to all of you...this is obviously such a gi-normous help in figuring out where and how to start with all of this. This has really helped me stay inspired to go with analog...a lot of folks I talk to around here are like "tape?...uh-oh...are you sure man?"...I imagine you've all heard the same. It was great to read your post Theo...I've been pondering the dread (and cost) of dumping tracks onto my computer and wondering how much I could bounce without losing too much. Bouncing is definitely an art and takes a lot of skillful planning...I hate it when I lose stuff like acoustic guitars or shaker tracks...but you've got me interested in that challenge. I'm also concerned about it sounding too stuffed and losing the sense of space and simplicity from bouncing...just because I'm an overdubbing maniac like most of us...but it's definitely worth a shot. I don't have an 8 input soundcard and those things look pretty pricey anyway.

I have no preamps or separate mixer for mics, so I'm gonna need phantom power on whatever mixer I end up with. There doesn't seem to be many M308B mixers around...what are some other possibilities? Will any decent 8 channel analog mixer work?

I guess the noise reduction issue will have to be trial and error...seems like a very interesting topic with analog recording. I know that I always use it on my 414mkII.

I still don't have the 38 in my hands but hopefully this week (I don't have a car cause all my funds go to gear and instruments!)

Cheers

[jpmorris]

Originally Posted by Timothy108

I still don't have the 38 in my hands but hopefully this week (I don't have a car cause all my funds go to gear and instruments!)Cheers

That sounds familiar

[clevodrummer]

one of my ideas was picking up a cd recorder like the tascam cd900. I was planning on mixing down from my 424 right to cd, and figured i would still have an analog sound. from what i read on this thread, it appears that mixing the normal way down to tape blows away the sound of mixing down to cd.

true or false? or in between?

[A Reel Person]

[IMO], To do your basic tracking on analog & then dub your mixes directly to CD, will impart the original "flavor" of analog to the resulting CD mixdown,... enough to be "authentic" sounding.

To take your analog mixes & dub them to a mixdown tape, (such as reel to reel), will in most cases put "another layer of cream" on the top,... so to speak,... if only slightly. The mixdown tape will have it's own coloring, however slight, as 15ips mixdown media was meant to be as transparent as possible, given the inherent characteristics of the technology.

In my own case, I'll track to analog and mix to the 'puter, and then burn CDs on the 'puter. I think mfg'r'g CDs of mixdowns on the 'puter is a bit easier, more efficient and more flexible than using a standalone CD burner, but the standalone CD burner was meant to function as much like the classic cassette deck as possible, which is the main advantage to using it.

[clevodrummer]

This is really gonna sound newbie, but what do i need to go from my 424mkIII to the puter and than burn from the puter?

A soundcard or something? wow...didnt even think of that, I can do it that way right away without waiting for the $$$ to get a standalone cd recorder, unless whatever I need to mix right to the puter costs close to the standalone, kapeesh?

thanks again...

[A Reel Person]

What you need is a 1/8"-to-RCA stereo Y-cable adapter,... a simple and inexpensive Radio-Shack/Walmart-type of item. Best Buy, Circuit City, you name it. Your corner Walgreens or Rite Aid stores might have them. It's a very common item.

Then, plug from your 424mkIII's Line-Outs to the "typical" cheap soundcard's "Line-In", (not Mic-In). Use Windows Sound Volume control to select and adjust levels of the INPUT-SIDE (Recording Mode) inputs and level controls.

Then use cheap (Magix) and/or free (Audiacity) software to record WAV files on your 'puter, at 16-bit/44.1kHz/stereo resolution, and burn audio CDs from layout/sequences of WAV files using CD authoring software, (Roxio, Adaptec, Nero, etc.)

(Magix and Audacity were used for example, but there must be dozens of suitable titles for recording stereo files to the 'puter).