apogee converters

[richardsorr]

I've been debating getting new converters for my studio for a long time. I have a digi 002r and an ISA428 with the ADC card, I obviously use the 428s converters over the digis

My question is, Will it be worth getting somethng like a Rosetta 800? Is there going to be a big difference over the 428s? If not I'll probably stick with the 428 and get a benchmark dac1 for my monitoring.

[Hard2Hear]

I use an AD16x, and Ive used the 428 in the past. I dont think theres a very big difference convertor wise between the Rosetta and the 428, at least not enough to add the Rosetta in your chain.

The very last thing I would upgrade in my chain would be the converters. And that would probably only be if I was rich and just wanted to spend money but ran out of things to spend money on.

Just my opinion.

[kojdogg]

a lot of folks dig the black lion audio mod for the 002r
www.blacklionaudio.com

[richardsorr]

i don't think the black lion mod even touches the converters. just the pres.

[kojdogg]

Originally Posted by richardsorr

i don't think the black lion mod even touches the converters. just the pres.

well, it doesn't change the converter chip, but it does improve the clock significantly afaik, and the analog paths to the converters and from the d/a's as well as the pres.
the clock upgrade should improve the performance of the converters significantly.

[kojdogg]

but full disclosure, i've never used the unit.
as for your original post, one advantage of getting external converters would be to use whatever pres you wanted though.

[richardsorr]

Originally Posted by kojdogg

but full disclosure, i've never used the unit.
as for your original post, one advantage of getting external converters would be to use whatever pres you wanted though.

well, the ISA428 has 4 built in pres, 8 converters. So I could still connect 4 channels of external pres to that if I went that route.

[xstatic]

Originally Posted by danny.guitar

The very last thing I would upgrade in my chain would be the converters. And that would probably only be if I was rich and just wanted to spend money but ran out of things to spend money on.

Just my opinion.

Maybe you should reevaluate this. There are really only three things that affect virtually every thing that you do... Room... Monitors... and Converters. Personally, I find converters to be one of the most cost effective upgrades out there whether you are just getting a new clock, converters themselves, or both. The per channel cost of a converter upgrade is much more affordable than anything else that I am aware of. The nice thing is that new converters affect everything you do, even tracks that have already been recorded.

I have also never really cared for the converters in the Focusrite. I can not really put my finger on what it was. Like things sounded good, but liked a likelike energy. Almost too smooth or something. If you do decide to upgrade, how about taking a mixed approach? For close to the same as an Apogee Rosetta 800 you could get an Aurora 8 and a Apogee Big Ben and then you could have 8 great channels in and out as well as being able to clock both the Focusrite you currently have and the Digi thus making all of the other converters you already had still usable, but sounding better than they were

[mrface2112]

Originally Posted by xstatic

Maybe you should reevaluate this. There are really only three things that affect virtually every thing that you do... Room... Monitors... and Converters.

+1 for this. the man speaks wisdom. have some chicklets!


cheers,
wade

[Soundmind??]

The converters are important. Why would one think that the process of converting the analog signal to a digital signal and vice versa is not important? Of course it all goes back to the weakest link thang. This is not a "you gotta have expensive gear to do good work" reply...it's just that converters are one of those parts of the chain that have significant impact on the overall sound quality, especially when a lot of tracks are in the mix. I can switch between the Rosetta 800 and the Delta 1010 and clearly hear a difference in clarity. But it only stands out when recorded through good pres and microphones. Bottom line is that you won't notice much of a difference if you use a $50 mic through a $79 pre into a $2500 converter. You will if you use gear of comparable quality in the complete signal path.

All said, a $7500 signal path will not replace good talent and skills, and I've read that many hits have been produced with inexpensive gear. Buy what you can afford and use it to the best of your ability. Just don't put a lot of money on just a mic, or a pre, or converters and expect a tremendous improvement.

As stated above, the room, and the monitor are very important, along with mic placement.

[NL5]

Originally Posted by xstatic

Maybe you should reevaluate this. There are really only three things that affect virtually every thing that you do... Room... Monitors... and Converters. Personally, I find converters to be one of the most cost effective upgrades out there whether you are just getting a new clock, converters themselves, or both. The per channel cost of a converter upgrade is much more affordable than anything else that I am aware of. The nice thing is that new converters affect everything you do, even tracks that have already been recorded.

I've never used Focusrite converters, but I gotta agree with Xstatic here. I have bought $4,000 microphones, $4,000 pre's (stereo), a $4,000 compressor, and recorded some of the best gear around. Other than the musicians and arrangement (edit - and fixing my control room), the converter upgrade made THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE in the quality of my recordings. Like someone said, if you have a 57 and a dmp3, I wouldn't waste my money, but with good gear, converters make all the difference in the world IMHO.

Well I'm not an expert when it comes to recording gear. I'm just saying...I imagine there would be a big difference in pres, microphones, (instruments/room), and all that, but I always thought the difference in drift/jitter was almost unnoticeable unless running a bunch of tracks through A/D conversion several times.

Guess I was wrong.

I still believe it's more important to have good instruments, players, room, monitors, microphones, and all that before converters. Maybe I'm wrong about that too

Reading dgatwood's post in the other forum reinforced my beliefs about converters. It's a good read incase anyone is interested.

http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=231866

[dgatwood]

Originally Posted by danny.guitar

Well I'm not an expert when it comes to recording gear. I'm just saying...I imagine there would be a big difference in pres, microphones, (instruments/room), and all that, but I always thought the difference in drift/jitter was almost unnoticeable unless running a bunch of tracks through A/D conversion several times.

Drift is always going to be too small to be audible. Jitter is usually too small to be audible as well, so long as it is random (as opposed to non-random noise caused by a really poor clock circuit with an AC leak of some sort, but fortunately, you're not likely to encounter such atrocities).

That doesn't mean that converters don't have an audible effect, though. There's a lot more to a converter than a clock. The most important, IMHO, is the analog signal path leading up to the converter. The importance of the analog signal path cannot be underestimated, as it is the place where 99% of the difference between a cheap converter and a better converter is likely to occur.

[NL5]

Originally Posted by danny.guitar

Well I'm not an expert when it comes to recording gear. I'm just saying...I imagine there would be a big difference in pres, microphones, (instruments/room), and all that, but I always thought the difference in drift/jitter was almost unnoticeable unless running a bunch of tracks through A/D conversion several times.

Guess I was wrong.

I still believe it's more important to have good instruments, players, room, monitors, microphones, and all that before converters. Maybe I'm wrong about that too

Reading dgatwood's post in the other forum reinforced my beliefs about converters. It's a good read incase anyone is interested.

http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=231866

That refers to Jitter. That is only one part of a converter's "quality"....head over to gearslutz, there is a HUGE thread by Dan Lavry that is quite interesting. I'll try and find the link.

I have done quite a few blind shootouts on converters, and I can pick out the better converters in a second. I have a harder time with pre's - I think they get WAY too much attention.

I also wanna stress, that by no means am I saying you can't get great results with lower level converters - or any gear for that matter. And, the musicians, their equipment, the arrangemant, and mic's do make a bigger difference than converters - but, you WILL appreciate them more thru great converters!

[NL5]

Originally Posted by dgatwood

That doesn't mean that converters don't have an audible effect, though. There's a lot more to a converter than a clock. The importance of the analog signal path cannot be underestimated,

Yep.

[Micter]

I have two recording rigs right now. The Digi002R and a set of Apogee AD16 an DA16's with an RME 9652 card.. There is a significant difference in the converters. The Apogee rig is much more open sounding. I would say go for the Apogees if you can afford it.

[richardsorr]

yeah, i have good pres, mics, monitors and my rooms are traeted. just really wondering if the difference will be just "that big" between the 428s converters and the rosetta. if there really isn't a decent improvement between the two, i can put that 3 grand towards more fun outboard gear


like i said,
if i stick with the 428 im getting a benchmark dac1 or lavry black

[Kevin Deschwazi]

If I was considering splashing that sort of cash I'd want to get it into the place where I record and check it out for myself (no disrespect to the good folks who've advised here).

Perhaps it's different in the US but here in the UK we have distance selling regs which say you can return anything bought online or by mail order within 7 days of delivery. Many retailers extend that to 14 or even 21 days but 7 is the mimnimum. Of course you have to be very careful not to scratch anything and to keep the packaging in good nick (although you are allowed to open it up to "examine the goods") and it costs you a few £ or $ in delivery costs but it's ideal if you want to give something a test run.

Any chance of doing that where you are?

[richardsorr]

Originally Posted by Kevin DeSchwazi

If I was considering splashing that sort of cash I'd want to get it into the place where I record and check it out for myself (no disrespect to the good folks who've advised here).

Perhaps it's different in the US but here in the UK we have distance selling regs which say you can return anything bought online or by mail order within 7 days of delivery. Many retailers extend that to 14 or even 21 days but 7 is the mimnimum. Of course you have to be very careful not to scratch anything and to keep the packaging in good nick (although you are allowed to open it up to "examine the goods") and it costs you a few £ or $ in delivery costs but it's ideal if you want to give something a test run.

Any chance of doing that where you are?

guitar center gives you 30 days, it's just so much of a hassle, though it's what i'll probably end up doing. thanks

[xfinsterx]

I have the ad 16x. It has the big ben built into it.

The most noticeable thing when you first get converters is the imaging.
There is no way i could have gotten that depth of stereo with just my 002 alone.
Not that you cant get fine mixes with a 002, you can.

Big they just dont sound as huge, and wide until you get the good converters, and clock.

[richardsorr]

hmmm, what about the ISA with a big ben, and the dac1 or lavry black for my monitoring.

would i even be able to hook all that up to my 002r successfully?

[tdukex]

I don't know how good your mics, monitoring chain, and room are, but for my money I'd want those items "up to grade" before investing in more converters (I'm assuming that the 428 converters are pretty decent RME quality).

Is there something about your final music product that falls short of your expectations? If so, do you think the 428 converters are the primary cause of this shortfall? If so, then go for better converters.

[richardsorr]

everything else is pretty up to par, I've honestly never really used the ISA converters on everything, usually just drums. I'm going to go with just a DAC1 for now, and possibly take advantage of guitar centers 30 day satisfaction gaurantee on the rosetta 800, try things out. My main thing is seeing if the rosetta has that much of an advantage over the ISAs AD. I don't want to spend nearly 3gs and say "yeah, i can kinda hear the difference" i want to spend 3gs and go "wow, I can really hear the difference!" yah know?

[xstatic]

Be carefuly with Guitar Center. The Rosetta 800 may well be a special order in which you will probably have to pay a restocking fee. I would call someone like Mercenary Audio who does have in stock stuff and is good about returns. Have you considered the Aurora and Big Ben combo I mentioned above? This gives you a good clock for the rest of your items also. Mercenary does carry both BTW

As far as the Apogee X series stuff, I keep hearing people say it has Big Ben clocking. From what I understand it has clocking capabilities that are BASED on Big Ben technology. This does not mean that it is the same, just that it shares similarities. I have had more than one person tell me that the new Apogee stuff still sounds better with an actual Big Ben. They or I could certainly be wrong though.