MORE Auto tune questions...

[Zed10R]

'Sup all,

I used the search function before I posted this.

This is what's up:

I am loving multitracking ALL vocals more and more as I get better at it. But, also as I get better at it, I am seeing how a good transparent auto tune program could make some really good tracks sound really great.

Because I am not a stellar, first class, vocal prodigy, the more vocal layers there are, the more slightly off pitch parts grab my attention and I cannot just live with it. I have to make everything as perfect as I am capable of, but because I am not a stellar vocal prodigy, no matter how many times I re-take, I cannot get them to be 100% perfect. The slight imperfections build up, and when I have (for example) 8 vocal layers, my ears just focus in on the imprefections.

What I'm looking for here is an auto tune software program that will find and fix those minor variances. I do NOT want audible artifacts...I do not want an "effect". I want a good transparent polish.

Any suggestions? I know about Roland V-Vocal and Antares Auto tune...but which would work best for this purpose? Are there any that are better?

Thanks!!

[fishkarma]

mabe medolyne essential and just find the pieces you need to fix and do it yourself!
i tried the lite version and it seemed good but vocal fixers arnt for me so havent bothered with it!! hope that helps

[scrubs]

I don't use any of them, but I hear Melodyne is pretty good, too. The reality is, even with precise editing, there will be artifacts. How noticeable those artifacts are to you or your listeners will vary according to the song, performance, editing skill, etc. You are modulating the pitch of a complex instrument (human voice) and making it sound "perfect" from a pitch standpoint will inherently make it sound unnatural.

[Zed10R]

Thanks Fish....

By "find it" I meant apply it to the section of the track that sounds off to me, I tell it what note should be there and it makes it happen. I've never used any auto tune program so I don'tknow how thery work....I don't expect it to just somehow know what I think it wrong or right.

Sometimes I am not very clear....

Watch the demo video of Melodyne, it does a really good job at this even on pretty off vocals. If the pitch isn't that far off then it should be able to do the job without adding noticeable artifacts. Also, having other instruments in the mix should help.

They also have a demo you can download, I would give it a try.

I've never used Antares AutoTune but that seems to get good reviews. You will just have to mess around with them.

[taeyoung]

I have used autotune, and I really was hoping for something like you describe, but after using it I think I'm of the opinion that it's more of a disaster recovery program.

I think the roland one, the anteres one, and the melodyne one are pretty similar.

First of all, don't use the automatic part of any of them if you can help it. You have to use the manual correction to make it less noticable, and even then it's hardly perfect.

The problem I've found with them took some analysis, but what I did was look at a vocal track that was PERFECT in autotune. What I noticed is that a PERFECT vocal track is far from PERFECT...if that makes sense? The best performances that people really liked and sounded natural and in tune, were the ones that are NOT exactly at 0 cents off margin. If you correct the track you are talking about to be perfect it often sounds unnatural.

Anyhow, that's what I found, but maybe I don't have as slick of a hand as others at using the autotune

[fishkarma]

Originally Posted by Zed10R

Thanks Fish....

By "find it" I meant apply it to the section of the track that sounds off to me, I tell it what note should be there and it makes it happen. I've never used any auto tune program so I don'tknow how thery work....I don't expect it to just somehow know what I think it wrong or right.

Sometimes I am not very clear....

well melodyne takes the waveform cuts it up along a time line showing what note each part is automaticaly then you can re tune bad notes or pitch shift just one word/syllable etc and drop/raise the selection to a new note or just add vibrato heres a link to melodyne:
http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=266


hope that helps

[fishkarma]

Originally Posted by taeyoung

The problem I've found with them took some analysis, but what I did was look at a vocal track that was PERFECT in autotune. What I noticed is that a PERFECT vocal track is far from PERFECT...if that makes sense? The best performances that people really liked and sounded natural and in tune, were the ones that are NOT exactly at 0 cents off margin. If you correct the track you are talking about to be perfect it often sounds unnatural.

Anyhow, that's what I found, but maybe I don't have as slick of a hand as others at using the autotune

im in agreement natural vox are nicer even if there not perfect

-josh

[Zed10R]

Originally Posted by taeyoung

I have used autotune, and I really was hoping for something like you describe, but after using it I think I'm of the opinion that it's more of a disaster recovery program.

I think the roland one, the anteres one, and the melodyne one are pretty similar.

First of all, don't use the automatic part of any of them if you can help it. You have to use the manual correction to make it less noticable, and even then it's hardly perfect.

The problem I've found with them took some analysis, but what I did was look at a vocal track that was PERFECT in autotune. What I noticed is that a PERFECT vocal track is far from PERFECT...if that makes sense? The best performances that people really liked and sounded natural and in tune, were the ones that are NOT exactly at 0 cents off margin. If you correct the track you are talking about to be perfect it often sounds unnatural.

Anyhow, that's what I found, but maybe I don't have as slick of a hand as others at using the autotune

Cool..thanks!!

You make perfect sense...in your experience, can you select small sections of tracks that are off margin by different "cents", say one is 6 off, another is 11, and another is 7, and correct them all to be all to be off by 4 cents? Does THAT make sense? Not actually make them perfect pitch...just make them closer to the same as each other??

[fishkarma]

i dont rember being able to find how off they were by cents, you probably could but i only played with it for a very short time (i try to get a good performance even if they take all day!!!), as for retuning it gives you like a note like a midi piano and you mark the tuning variation within the note with a line

as i say i only played with the essential version very breifly found vocal tuning to be "not my thing" so left it alone


better yet here see for yourself http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=116

[taeyoung]

Originally Posted by Zed10R

Cool..thanks!!

You make perfect sense...in your experience, can you select small sections of tracks that are off margin by different "cents", say one is 6 off, another is 11, and another is 7, and correct them all to be all to be off by 4 cents? Does THAT make sense? Not actually make them perfect pitch...just make them closer to the same as each other??

Well, here's why I found I won't use autotune probably anymore: The tracks that were spot on, had a sine wave looking wave form on the pitches. So, like a note that was dead on from my ears, was wavings from like +16 to -16 on the same note (and the same word for that matter). I think some would call that "vibrato" but I'm talking about notes that don't even have noticible vibrato. So, I think most voices are designed to kind of fluxuate the note a little above and below rapidly even without trying to make a vibrato sound.

If you TRY to make vibrato it's even greater, like from +45 to -45 or MORE.

So, if you squash it down to 0, or even -4, it's gonna be this flat line, and not have that sine wave looking pattern.

Here's what I've seen others use it for that works for them:
1.) Keep the original vocal, and then use the autotuned vocal in addition with the volume very low, just to bring out that perfect vocal melody.
2.) In a very busy mix with lots of other noise, and the vocal slightly buried, it sounds OK.

But, I think the key is, that the vocal has to already be very close. If it's already more than 50 cents off (half of a half step) then it's going to ALTER the sound, usually in a noticable way. I don't think there is such a program to let you sing stuff off pitch and just make it "fine and dandy" like you sang it correctly in the first place as of yet. I think if you can hear the vocals off pitch it might be better to do a bunch of takes and then clip together the ones that are in pitch at the places that they are off in other takes.

Also, a lot of people usually comment that when you are using like 8 tracks of vocals, the best part about it, is that full sound you get with the subtle differences in pitch. Heck, a lot of people even use effect programs to make their vocals slightly out of pitch with each other when they double or quadruple tracks.

[fishkarma]

Originally Posted by taeyoung

Also, a lot of people usually comment that when you are using like 8 tracks of vocals, the best part about it, is that full sound you get with the subtle differences in pitch. Heck, a lot of people even use effect programs to make their vocals slightly out of pitch with each other when they double or quadruple tracks.

you talk a lot of sense i love the sound of triple tracked vox (8 might sound like a group of people as opposed to tightening it up, at least to me but thats just opinion) but gotta love the full sound!!!

[Zed10R]

Originally Posted by taeyoung

But, I think the key is, that the vocal has to already be very close. If it's already more than 50 cents off (half of a half step) then it's going to ALTER the sound, usually in a noticable way. I don't think there is such a program to let you sing stuff off pitch and just make it "fine and dandy" like you sang it correctly in the first place as of yet. I think if you can hear the vocals off pitch it might be better to do a bunch of takes and then clip together the ones that are in pitch at the places that they are off in other takes.

Also, a lot of people usually comment that when you are using like 8 tracks of vocals, the best part about it, is that full sound you get with the subtle differences in pitch. Heck, a lot of people even use effect programs to make their vocals slightly out of pitch with each other when they double or quadruple tracks.

Cool..I'm following ya....and the tracks I want to do this to ARE close to being spot on. VERY close. The idea is not to sing stuff off key real quick and then go in and "fix" it. The idea is to sing a line 8 times as exaclty as humanly possibe (but because I am human there will be minor pitch differences) and use an auto tune to nudge those differences closer towards where I want them to be. If a take is a quarter step off I'll re-track it, no problem.

What I'm hearing is that this might not be possible...???

[taeyoung]

Originally Posted by Zed10R

Cool..I'm following ya....and the tracks I want to do this to ARE close to being spot on. VERY close. The idea is not to sing stuff off key real quick and then go in and "fix" it. The idea is to sing a line 8 times as exaclty as humanly possibe (but because I am human there will be minor pitch differences) and use an auto tune to nudge those differences closer towards where I want them to be. If a take is a quarter step off I'll re-track it, no problem.

What I'm hearing is that this might not be possible...???

No no, I won't say that. The autotune definitely works. Lots of full fledged studios use autotune or similar program. I would try it...I think you can download autotune 5 demo from their website. I would just try it. It doesn't work for a lot of things, but it does work for some things. Like ultra tight backstreet boys 4 part harmonies. And probably other stuff if you use it right. I probably just don't know how to make it work with the stuff I record maybe.

It's cool to have, I don't regret getting it, I'm sure there will be cases when I'll use it, but for stuff I really care about, and want to sound really polished I just don't use it. I'd rather retrack and cut up a bunch of takes or something instead.

Hope that helps, maybe some others have more experience than me

[Zed10R]

Thank you much.....

[Farview]

Originally Posted by Zed10R

What I'm hearing is that this might not be possible...???

It's possible, it's just kind of silly. If you make all the voices exactly the same, you will lose the effect of having multiple voices. No matter if you pitch shift them to be exactly on key or not. If they are all the same, it defeats the purpose of multiple layers.

However, if you want to do it, autotune will do it. I'm sure the other ones will as well.

Transparently tuning vocals takes a lot of digging into the details of autotune. You need to read the manual and understand what makes a good vocal take.

You will find that perfection rarely lines up to a grid.

[Zed10R]

Originally Posted by Farview

It's possible, it's just kind of silly. If you make all the voices exactly the same, you will lose the effect of having multiple voices. No matter if you pitch shift them to be exactly on key or not. If they are all the same, it defeats the purpose of multiple layers.

However, if you want to do it, autotune will do it. I'm sure the other ones will as well.

Transparently tuning vocals takes a lot of digging into the details of autotune. You need to read the manual and understand what makes a good vocal take.

You will find that perfection rarely lines up to a grid.

Well see....that's the thing. I've never used a program like that. I don't want all the layers to be EXACLTY the same or I'd copy and paste. I don't expect to take crappy tracks and make them perfect. I'm against that approach 100%.

It is difficult to expalin what I want to do.

Let's say you record just four takes of a chorus. Let's say those four takes are, individually, spot on and sound just as they should. But if you layer them one on top of the other, equal volume and no effects at all, in mono (for example), chances are that you will hear small differences in tune. Now, let's say you use some autotune to nudge those diffences closer to "sameness" so you don't hear any one singe voice have any variance that you can pick out. What you are left with is the added detail, depth, and nuance of vocal chords doing thier thing not quite exaclty the same way twice. THAT is what I want to capture.

Does anyone have any advice fo how to capture that if what I am doing is..."silly"?

[Farview]

Just use the autotune program. If that is what is happening, you are farther out of tune than you think. (and it needs to be fixed) If you are really close, you could even just use the auto mode and it will do what you want.

[Zed10R]

Originally Posted by Farview

Just use the autotune program. If that is what is happening, you are farther out of tune than you think. (and it needs to be fixed) If you are really close, you could even just use the auto mode and it will do what you want.

Well....I did say I was not a fantastic singer!

[Farview]

Originally Posted by Zed10R

Well....I did say I was not a fantastic singer!

Autotune will do what you want.