OMG this singer is driving me nuts

[taeyoung]

OK, so maybe I'm not alone in this, but I feel like this must be the stupidist singer I've ever worked with. And the weird part is I actually like her a lot.

So, I have this singer, and she's a great singer...when she is not in front of a recording mic. Performing without a mic she has this super powerful voice, extremely clear and accurate. But then stick her in the recording booth and she turns into this other person that I do not know or understand. She loses her voice.

Actually the main thing she does is get real REAL quiet in front of the mic. Like whispering quiet. But she doesn't seem nervous, that's the weird part. She's fine with it. She THINKS she's doing just fine. But she is singing EVERYTHING TOTALLY different.

Have any of you ran into this? I tried giving her a hand held sm58 and just listen to her sing without recording, and she does the same thing...gets real quiet like she doesnt want anyone to hear, but then take away a mic and just put her in front of the piano and she sings nice and loud and clear.
That won't do for this though, and I've even told her "hey, you're singing way quiet all the sudden...sing LOUD" and she sings a little louder, but not even close to the same without a mic.

Hoping someone has some suggestions, she's driving me nuts, it's like she's a little kid who doesn't understand what she's doing

[RAMI]

Lack of experience. She's probably hearing herself in the headphones and she doesn't even realise it's freaking her out.

[Myriad_Rocker]

Maybe she hears too much of herself in the cans?

[EDIT]: Beat me to it.

[MadAudio]

I've encountered this before. Just crank up the instrument playback but keep her voice low in the headphone mix. That way she'll be forced to be loud just to hear herself. You may have to make a few adjustments before you're getting her to belt it out.

[taeyoung]

Hmm, yeah, maybe you guys are right. I always check the volume of stuff in both headphones before I start...but this is definitely worth an experiment. Make it so she can hardly hear herself, then maybe she'll start singing louder!

Thanks!!

[fishkarma]

im gonna agree with that i do my own vox but when im recording i have the headphone mix very low so i can pipe it out!!! i find it nice to sing at the volume i would ideally sing it so i get the instruments to a medium level (not loud) and have the voice low, as opposed to hearing loud instruments and voice in cans at a medium level. if that makes sense

ie to me it sounds as if im singing along to a live band but with them turned down so actually hearing my voice would be the equivelent to hearing the PA at a gig

if all else fails give her the master monitor level and and the fader level of her voice and get her to set the best level for her (in other peoples studios they always set the levels wrong for me! and end up asking if i can do it myself!)


thats my two cents
-Josh

[mystasynasta]

So let me get this straight, she sings quiet as soon as you put headphones on her and push record? Ive ran into the same issue several times before. It's hard fpr some people to record with headphones on. What I've done is have them put the headphones around their neck and turn them up. I turn the monitoring on their voice all the way down. I recorded their voice, making sure that they don't move from their spot. I play back the whole song after tracking is done through the headphones again while she is still standing there. I then reverse the phase of the second track to remove any leakage from the headphones. Mix the two tracks down to one and add any effects I need. I have had to do this 2 or 3 times. Some people just can't use headphones (even with their voice way down, I'm not quite sure what it is). Did I explain that well? It makes sense to me but sometimes I'm not the best at explaining .

Good Luck!
-Lee

[ridgeback]

Been there on both ends. Singer and engineer. I haven't tried this yet but maybe someone here has. There is a way to wire live monitors out of phase from the mic so they cancel themselves as far as the mic is concerned. No cans and they feel they're singing more naturally to the sound around them. I'll have to do some digging through articles but this was done for this same situation. Put the cans on and they clam up like a mouse.

[fishkarma]

sounds like a good idea but if it was true why to god wouldnt they do that to all monitors in the first place??? dont get me wrong id love to know how if it does work but it dosnt make sense!!!
-Josh

[ridgeback]

Originally Posted by fishkarma

sounds like a good idea but if it was true why to god wouldnt they do that to all monitors in the first place??? dont get me wrong id love to know how if it does work but it dosnt make sense!!!
-Josh

Josh, I have to guess the quality (sonically) of monitors out of phase might not be the prettiest. Strictly a rough reference kind of deal. And there's got to be some kind of bleed but supposedly it's minimal. I'll dig around tonight and see if I can find it. Either that or Glen or someone will see this and enlighten us on the subject. Like I said, I've never tried it.

[taeyoung]

Gosh, I guess I never thought of the HEADPHONES being a possible problem for her....actually when we finished up the other night, she did say "wow those headphones are tight." I just said something like "yeah, that's so the click and other instruments don't bleed into the microphone."

Never really thought that just having the headphones on would change someone's performance. I guess I'll have some experimenting to do. Why do some people have to be different Usually, most people just come in and record their stuff. If they can't hear an instrument, they tell me to turn it up. If they can't hear their voice they say so. If the headphone are bugging them, they just say "I don't like these headphone, do you have some other ones." Geesh.

[ridgeback]

Tae, to this day if I'm on the talent (I use that term loosely) end of things, the second I open my big mouth I jump back like a snake. I've never been very comfortable performing with cans on. Maybe that helps me from an engineering standpoint sometimes though. Most vets don't give it a second thought. Newbie on the phones and it's like "Is that how it's going to sound on the CD?!?"

[jmorris]

I have been beat'n to the punch. Lower her phone levels a lot or/and have her slide one part of the headphones off her ear. Make her push to hear herself.If this does not work give her a wet willy!

[true-eurt]

Hi Tae....I have that very same problem. I prefer to sing without headphones. Always have and even though I have learned to sing(somewhat)with them on....I do find, that I perform better with them off. The advice about cranking up the tune and turning down the vox input will most likely do help the singer...IF...hearing herself above the other instrumentation is what is bothering her.

I do not like to hear my voice above the music as I sing....it intimidates me...don't ask me why...I am just weird that way. I actually prefer to use a condensor mic (no cans) and record the keys and vox at the same time with the keys sounding more predominate volume wise, than my voice.....

Yah...not a good thing and not a professional recording method and I am trying to break myself of the habit.

Good luck with it.

[ridgeback]

Originally Posted by jmorris

If this does not work give her a wet willy!

Thankyou sir. Wiping off the keyboard and screen.

[ridgeback]

Originally Posted by true-eurt

and not a professional recording method and I am trying to break myself of the habit.

True, we're all trying to break ourselves from the professional recording method .

[true-eurt]

Originally Posted by ridgeback

True, we're all trying to break ourselves from the professional recording method .

Oh the support I get here....

[ridgeback]

OK, not the article I'm looking for but it's a start to the basics.
Bob Heil

“I had brought in these monitors and started thinking ‘wait a minute I can start playing with phasing’ . . . and I DID. We would run the microphones out of phase from the monitors, something that nobody had been doing yet. Since they were out of phase from the mics and the front systems, we could get these things incredibly loud before they would feedback.” The key to the golden lock was phasing, as Bob relays to everyone he instructs. “That’s one of the things that Jerry Garcia was really in love with. Our monitors were really something; and we got those guys into doing all kinds of phasing tricks with the monitors and mics. As you know, a lack of phasing equals no sound; so it’s all very important — the placement of monitors, the types of microphones, and having it in the right phase or the wrong phase.”

Concerning choice of mics in relation to phasing, Bob adds that technological advancements, many of which have been handheld by Heil Sound, are now the key to the world of using phasing to achieve the desired end. “You take this new technology, which comes in the form of better cardioid patterns, and the phase plug of the mic reduces what’s coming from behind. If you take two signals out of phase they will cancel; from 180 degrees out you will get no sound. In the studios, guys will put microphone after microphone up: one 3 feet away, one 2 inches away, one 10 feet away, and so on. Sure, all the mics are picking up sound—but the one closest to the source, of course, gets the sound fastest. They are in different phases, so you experience time delays. The amount of time it takes for the sound to reach the mic changes depending on their placement — and in that case they might have flipped phase three times before it gets there. You have to be real careful where you place all this stuff in the studio, because when you record something you want it to come back through the speakers exactly in the same phase that it was recorded.” Bob concludes, “So many times the signal is going through different chains. Every time you go through a device, if it’s a virgin where nothing has been changed in it, it will change phase. You have to understand what is going on here — you might have to have phase inversion to get it back to the original phase it was recorded in. It’s more than just important — it’s everything.”

[dgatwood]

Originally Posted by jmorris

I have been beat'n to the punch. Lower her phone levels a lot or/and have her slide one part of the headphones off her ear. Make her push to hear herself.If this does not work give her a wet willy!

Agreed. Try with a single can on her ear, then cut the audio to the other one so you don't get bleed.

[Dani Pace]

Just a thought, we all hear our voices from inside our heads when we speak or sing, it takes a bit of getting used to hearing ourselves from the outside. Some people never seem to get used to it. I've had to use earbuds with no vocals to get some inexperienced singers to really sing out while with others I've had to turn the music way down and push the vocals to make singers happy. It's like so many other things in recording, you have to experiment and find what works best for the situation. Headphones make some people feel "closed in" and may prevent them from really singing out, earbuds are less confining and seem to help. You might try having her sing in a larger room, small rooms/vocal boothes intimidate some singers and can cause them to hold back. Work with her to find whatever is most comfortable to her, then do your thing and record it, good luck.

[fishkarma]

Originally Posted by ridgeback

OK, not the article I'm looking for but it's a start to the basics.
Bob Heil

“I had brought in these monitors and started thinking ‘wait a minute I can start playing with phasing’ . . . and I DID. We would run the microphones out of phase from the monitors, something that nobody had been doing yet. Since they were out of phase from the mics and the front systems, we could get these things incredibly loud before they would feedback.” The key to the golden lock was phasing, as Bob relays to everyone he instructs. “That’s one of the things that Jerry Garcia was really in love with. Our monitors were really something; and we got those guys into doing all kinds of phasing tricks with the monitors and mics. As you know, a lack of phasing equals no sound; so it’s all very important — the placement of monitors, the types of microphones, and having it in the right phase or the wrong phase.”

Concerning choice of mics in relation to phasing, Bob adds that technological advancements, many of which have been handheld by Heil Sound, are now the key to the world of using phasing to achieve the desired end. “You take this new technology, which comes in the form of better cardioid patterns, and the phase plug of the mic reduces what’s coming from behind. If you take two signals out of phase they will cancel; from 180 degrees out you will get no sound. In the studios, guys will put microphone after microphone up: one 3 feet away, one 2 inches away, one 10 feet away, and so on. Sure, all the mics are picking up sound—but the one closest to the source, of course, gets the sound fastest. They are in different phases, so you experience time delays. The amount of time it takes for the sound to reach the mic changes depending on their placement — and in that case they might have flipped phase three times before it gets there. You have to be real careful where you place all this stuff in the studio, because when you record something you want it to come back through the speakers exactly in the same phase that it was recorded.” Bob concludes, “So many times the signal is going through different chains. Every time you go through a device, if it’s a virgin where nothing has been changed in it, it will change phase. You have to understand what is going on here — you might have to have phase inversion to get it back to the original phase it was recorded in. It’s more than just important — it’s everything.”

What great ideas!! im off to go play with wires, phase and my mics!!!
if you find more on this stuff let me know! either in this post a new one or PM

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by Bob Heil

Concerning choice of mics in relation to phasing, Bob adds that technological advancements, many of which have been handheld by Heil Sound, are now the key to the world of using phasing to achieve the desired end.

How convenient

Originally Posted by Bob Heil

They are in different phases, so you experience time delays. The amount of time it takes for the sound to reach the mic changes depending on their placement — and in that case they might have flipped phase three times before it gets there.

Ummmmmm.... WHAT???? The only thing that's out of phase is this guy's handle on the truth...or at least his explanation of the truth.

G.

[Lt. Bob]

1st thing to try is simply taking one side of the cans off ...... possibly taking her out of the monitor mix altogether so she hears her voice the same as normal.
I bet just doing that'll make a huge difference.
Also .... try putting her behind a screen or turn the lights out or whatever it takes so she knows she can't be seen. Singers will sometimes do a lot better if they don't feel like they're a spectacle and if they can feel like they're at home by themselves they'll relax a lot.

[ridgeback]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

How convenient Ummmmmm.... WHAT???? The only thing that's out of phase is this guy's handle on the truth...or at least his explanation of the truth.

G.

How do you mean Glen?

[zbert]

Another vote for no headphones. I had an opera singer who never recorded with headphones. We tried different ideas for a couple of sessions. I finally said no headphones. That was the key. We went out of phase and it did the trick.