Getting 'clicky' toms?

[mrhotapples]

I have just begun (over the past four months) to have the equipment to mic tom toms separately, and I cannot figure out how some metal bands get their toms so present. Do they take the bottom head off and mic the top head like you'd do a kick drum? Or is it all in the heads and how hard they get hit?

[zacanger]

It's all in the tuning and the drummer. Might use a different kind of stick (hickory as opposed to maple, for example), different heads, whatever. Or just add some top-end to get a clickier sound. Replace your heads before you start going nuts with EQ.

[technominds]

Originally Posted by mrhotapples

I have just begun (over the past four months) to have the equipment to mic tom toms separately, and I cannot figure out how some metal bands get their toms so present. Do they take the bottom head off and mic the top head like you'd do a kick drum? Or is it all in the heads and how hard they get hit?

I found that playing with compression gave me this kind of sound. High compression gives you that click, but beware of changing the sound and losing its pitching.

Tuning the tom is vital, and make sure you have the mic as close to the skin as you can without it touching, to get the sound of the skin.

With multiple toms, make sure you give the stereo seperation with panning.

[jonnyc]

Drum replacer, that's how a lot of metal bands get there tom sounds, and pretty much every other drum for that matter. However, good tuning, good playing and good engineering can make your toms sound very good. As far as eq'ing them goes, I'll sometimes(if it sounds right)eq the toms similar to the kick drum.

[ez_willis]

Originally Posted by zacanger

It's all in the tuning and the drummer.

It's all in the trigger and the sample.

[zacanger]

Originally Posted by ez_willis

It's all in the trigger and the sample.

Haha or that, yeah.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by jonnyc

Drum replacer

Pussy.

Real men record drums.

The "metal click" thing is a combination of several things. Fresh heads make a huge difference, tuning the top head a little loose and getting the note from the bottom head is key... adding a little 5-8kHz to the track helps with the "smack" but you'll need to be careful about what it does to the overheads/cymbals.

I often use an SPL Electronics "Transient Designer" to get a bit more attack and sustain on the drums [again, being very careful as to what it does to the cymbals].

The toms should sound good in your overheads as well... and you should really check the drums in mono with the overheads to mimimize time smear and phase issues.

Best of luck with it.

[technominds]

Originally Posted by jonnyc

Drum replacer, that's how a lot of metal bands get there tom sounds, and pretty much every other drum for that matter. However, good tuning, good playing and good engineering can make your toms sound very good. As far as eq'ing them goes, I'll sometimes(if it sounds right)eq the toms similar to the kick drum.

What programs are there for this? When i record with a pathetic kit it would be nice to transfer the sounds.

[Farview]

I agree with Fletcher and would like to add that the drummer needs to hit the drum with enough force to create that sound. Lightly tapping on a tightly tuned head will not get you anywhere.

Head choice will make a difference as well. Coated heads don't help. If you are working with a cheaper drumset, put on some pinstripes and tune them low. If you hit them hard, you will get the sound you want.

As far as the kick sound, you need to use a hard beater and hit with some force. I prefer to leave the front head on (with a vent hole) and the drum empty. I used to put blankets in the kick to keep it from ringing, but I have since learned how to tune the drum so it doesn't.

[zacanger]

Originally Posted by Farview

I used to put blankets in the kick to keep it from ringing, but I have since learned how to tune the drum so it doesn't.

Do tell! I've got a sleeping bag in mine right now, but I'd love to take that out and have it not ring....

[mrhotapples]

Thanks errbody. I've got two bands to record next week and neither of the kits are going to have new heads on, but one has emperors on the toms so it should be what I'm looking for...But I'll take the advice on tuning...Makes sense, but I guess a lot of drummers don't think that way. Most of the heavier metal toms I hear don't have much of a tone, they're more like an arsenal of little kick drums, and it never occurred to me that they probably sound like that because they're tuned like that and using thinner heads.

On a side note, can any drummers give me some tips on killing rattle? Most of the kits I've recorded have a horrible buzz somewhere that I can never find. Aside from reassembling a drum, is there any other way by which you can dampen buzzing? I'm not talking about snare buzz, but hardware that seems to never tighten up.

[mrhotapples]

Oh yeah, Zac, try finger tightening the batter head's lugs and then tune the front head up so it's a little more taught. You know, tune the pitches just slightly off from one another so the tone cancels out. I've seen too many kicks tuned the opposite and it sounds bad and they STILL take the muffling out.

If the front head's lugs are falling off, it's not good.

[jonnyc]

Originally Posted by technominds

What programs are there for this? When i record with a pathetic kit it would be nice to transfer the sounds.

Drumagog would be a decent choice. In fact Mr. Farview, who's made an appearance in this thread, sells samples for the program. About 300 bucks would get you some really good drum sounds.

[jonnyc]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Pussy.

Real men record drums.

The "metal click" thing is a combination of several things. Fresh heads make a huge difference, tuning the top head a little loose and getting the note from the bottom head is key... adding a little 5-8kHz to the track helps with the "smack" but you'll need to be careful about what it does to the overheads/cymbals.

I often use an SPL Electronics "Transient Designer" to get a bit more attack and sustain on the drums [again, being very careful as to what it does to the cymbals].

The toms should sound good in your overheads as well... and you should really check the drums in mono with the overheads to mimimize time smear and phase issues.

Best of luck with it.

Hey now I'm all na-tu-ral when it comes to recording drums, even metal. No replacers here, just giving the guy an easy way out.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by technominds

What programs are there for this? When i record with a pathetic kit it would be nice to transfer the sounds.

Drumagog is a program that will do this.

[Halion]

Originally Posted by technominds

I found that playing with compression gave me this kind of sound. High compression gives you that click, but beware of changing the sound and losing its pitching.

Actually, it's not so much high levels of compression as it is compression with a slow attack. What happens is that the compressor sees the hit of the tom, but doesn't start compressing it untill after the transient, increasing the level different between the transient (the click) and the decay (the oohmph). Be sure to set the release to not overlap into the next tom hit.

This works on pretty much any percussive signal. Great for kicks and snares aswell!

[Farview]

Originally Posted by zacanger

Do tell! I've got a sleeping bag in mine right now, but I'd love to take that out and have it not ring....

The easiest way is to get Evans EMAD heads and tune them relatively low.

You can do it with powerstrokes too, you just need to have a hole in the front head and tune the heads low, this also helps with the click.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by mrhotapples

I've got two bands to record next week and neither of the kits are going to have new heads on.

You might want to talk to them about that. They are going into a studio to record, after all; they should want to sound their best.

It's like going out on a first date and deciding not to shower or brush your teeth beforehand.

G.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

It's like going out on a first date and deciding not to shower or brush your teeth beforehand.

This is wrong???


Damn, no wonder I'm lonely.

[mrhotapples]

lol, you have a point...I definitely prefer new strings/heads/voices...But sometimes money gets in the way. Why are drummers always broke?

[zacanger]

Because we spend so much money on drums? Like yet another big Tama metal snare that I want really badly? . I figured out that even buying the absolute cheapest Remo heads, it'd cost me over $250 to replace all the heads on my kit (Kick, 2 snares, 5 toms). Ouch. I could almost buy a new Pulse or PDP kit for that .

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by RAMI

This is wrong???

Hey, Rami, you're in French Canada, not France!

For zac and OP: As far as the cost of new heads goes, I'd consider that part of the cost of recording in a studio, just like new strings and new batteries and a new case of beer.

If your current heads are just fine, or you like the sound of your current heads, that's OK. But if you like the sound of new heads, then you need to get new heads. It's as simple as that. If you can't afford them yet, then you can't afford to go into the studio yet.

If you can't afford the tux because you spent all your money on the rock, then you're not ready to walk down the aisle yet.

G.

[jonnyc]

New heads are a must, if not it only makes us engineers look bad because we couldn't make it sound great. I actually had a session about a month ago and after mic'ing everything up and listened to what I've got I had to ask the kid how long it had been since he replaced his heads and he said it had been 6 months or so. I almost fell outta my chair, I happened to know that this kid played out at least once a week and practiced nearly everyday. We stopped the session, I instructed him to get all new heads, put them on, tune them, and then come back when he can. He did end up getting new heads but he kind of expected me to help him put them on and tune them. At least the drums didn't suck after that. Still not as bad as the guy who brought in a toy acoustic(not a shitty acoustic, a toy one, literally) with year old electic guitar strings. He spends a hundred bucks for 4 hours and brings in a toy.

[NashBackslash]

Just wanted to share my experience; for metal and hardcore bands (who always send me references like Trivium, As I Lay Dying, Avenged Sevenfold, etc) I've always achieved the "click" they want from the kick drum by tuning the beater side head really low, like almost flabby. I tried it with toms, and managed to get similar results, but they can't be too loose or it just sounds crappy.

But of course, this all means nothing if the drummer taps on them like a girl. I make sure they hit their toms real hard because that's where the click comes from. With good tom tracks, I use EQ as a last resort, even then just like 2 or 3 dB at most at the "sticky" areas (which I can't really specify, but usually around 5 KHz).

If all else fails, I just insert Drumagog, look for some really clicky tom samples and EQ rape them further if necessary. >=P

EDIT: I remember reading about how sometimes engineers would stick some sort of metal pad or something at kick drum beater's point of impact to get even more click out of their kick drums. Not sure if this will work for toms, though?

[Adam P]

You should tell them to reference Rust In Peace, Reign In Blood, Heartwork, and Cause Of Death instead.