Levelling frets

[cephus]

How big does your brain have to be to do this. There ain't no way I'm paying $200 to get a setup for a $199 guitar. The frets are huge, but some are worn. I like the worn ones. The unworn ones, like up above the 15th fret look factory fresh and are blocking lower frets' view of the bridge. I've seen those big ass straight edges in the stem mac catalog. How much would you have to spend to be able to compensate the frets for wear?

[muttley600]

The very basic of tools you'll need to dress the frets are

A FLAT wetstone or diamond stone or very fine cut file. Did I mention it needs to be FLAT. Oh and it needs to be FLAT

Some good fine cut needle files. The best are the ones with a fine cut and a blank edge for this job. If you are gonna do a few fret jobs get some proper fret files and crowning files.

Some good quality masking tape.

Various grades of wet and dry paper from 600 grit to 1200 grit.

If you have a dremel drill or small buffing wheel it will save time when you come to polish the frets, but use ti with care.

You can fret dress selectively say just above the 15th fret as you suggest. Mask of everything though.

There are many many tools just for fret dressing so please don't think this list is it. It is the very bare minimum.

As to doing the job. Once again I recommend getting some junkers before you start on your favorite axe.

I posted a long post once before about dressing frets on a shoe string so I'll quote myself. Before you start slacken the truss rod so you have a flat fret board with no relief.

Now if you've worked fairly precisely you will not have much fret dressing to do. You will always have some to do however unless you have been real lucky. Some of this is going to get dirty so mask off the fingerboard leaving the frets exposed. Take a fine FLAT wet stone or better still a diamond stone and run it across the top of the frets until you have knocked the top off all of them. The fret tops are all now level and you need to re crown and polish them. You can get special tools for this again but it is possible with some careful work with everyday tools. Using a flat needle file re-file the fret crown so it is round. You might find marking the fret tops with marker pen gives you an idea of how you’re doing. Just before the line is filed away is what your after with the fret now back to a nice round crown. Be very careful not to nick the fingerboards as you go. Now get some wet and dry paper 800 grit up to 1600 and using nothing but you fingers as backing work along the fingerboard to remove any file marks finish with a real fine grade that is well worn. Finally use a burnishing cloth to polish to a shine with a little fine burnishing compound added. Don't get any on bare wood!! so keep the masking tape in place for the whole process. The last job is to roll off any sharp edges on the fret ends using your needle files and then polish them with dry paper and a chamois leather with the masking removed. Check you work and polish selectively if required.

Voila! One fretted and dressed neck.

Any questions fire away.

[travelin travis]

I found this stuff on guitar building forums:

Some of those stones are pretty expensive. Someone on one of the forums I've been visiting mentioned that using a piece of 1/4" glass covered with sandpaper works very well for leveling.

Low cost stainless steel straight edge. You'll need the 18" (it's out of stock right now). If you get two, one can be used to check the fret tops and the other can be notched (to fit over the frets) to check straightness of the fingerboard. If the 18" isn't available soon, you could cut up a longer one (or have it cut) and you would have a fret rocker or two to boot.

http://www.misterart.com/store/view/...aight-Edge.htm

I've read that those diamond crowning files aren't exactly universal and don't work for all sizes of fret wire. It sounds like a crap shoot as to which fret wire those files will actually work with. From a lot of reading, most of the old guys seem to use a small triangle file with the bottom edge ground smooth for crowning. These files are very inexpensive.

A cool trick I read about: Mark the tops of the frets with a sharpie before crowning, after leveling. When you crown a fret, there should be a fine straight line left on the fret top from the sharpie mark. It will insure that you aren't taking away metal in the wrong place. I read that it works pretty good during leveling too to help see where you've actually been removing material.

I also saw many mentions of using a soft foam sanding block and sandpaper for cleaning up after the triangle file. Cover the foam sanding block with sandpaper, holding it flat in your hand at an angle to the fretboard, and make a few swipes from one end of the fingerboard to the other end. Change the sandpaper for a finer grit and repeat. Progress thru to your finest paper. I forget the starting/ending grits.

I'll see if I can dig up some links for you.

[Lt. Bob]

Sounds like Muttley's got the best DIY method. A set of fret files (even cheap ones) would make the dressing a LOT easier!

Also, I'm curious how a straight edge would apply ...... most necks I've ever seen bow backwards when the tension is taken off the neck which you basically have to do in order to work on the frets.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by TravisinFlorida

I found this stuff on guitar building forums:

Some of those stones are pretty expensive. Someone on one of the forums I've been visiting mentioned that using a piece of 1/4" glass covered with sandpaper works very well for leveling.

Low cost stainless steel straight edge. You'll need the 18" (it's out of stock right now). If you get two, one can be used to check the fret tops and the other can be notched (to fit over the frets) to check straightness of the fingerboard. If the 18" isn't available soon, you could cut up a longer one (or have it cut) and you would have a fret rocker or two to boot.

http://www.misterart.com/store/view/...aight-Edge.htm

I've read that those diamond crowning files aren't exactly universal and don't work for all sizes of fret wire. It sounds like a crap shoot as to which fret wire those files will actually work with. From a lot of reading, most of the old guys seem to use a small triangle file with the bottom edge ground smooth for crowning. These files are very inexpensive.

A cool trick I read about: Mark the tops of the frets with a sharpie before crowning, after leveling. When you crown a fret, there should be a fine straight line left on the fret top of the sharpie mark.

I also saw many mentions of using a soft foam sanding block and sandpaper for cleaning up after the triangle file. Cover the foam sanding block with sandpaper, holding it flat in your hand at an angle to the fretboard, and make a few swipes from one end of the fingerboard to the other end. Change the sandpaper for a finer grit and repeat. Progress thru to your finest paper. I forget the starting/ending grits.

I'll see if I can dig up some links for you.

Anything that is FLAT and you can use to knock the tops off the frets will do to get them all level. A good stone isn't that expensive and it serves for other jobs too. OK so I got loads and have a couple of diamond stones I use just for fret dressing but as with all things get the best you can afford. Glass and paper will do in a pinch but is not ideal. The frets will tend to rip the paper, even emery cloth.

For fret dressing you can get away with just a 12" ruler if you have to. An 18" straight edge is better. To test how straight draw a line flip it over draw the same line. You should have just one line any gaps ditch it!!

With the fret crowning files you need to use one that is slightly wider than your fret wire. Fret wire as it is supplied rarely has a precise tolerance, even the good stuff varies from metre to metre, so the point of the file is to give you a crown to the fret that you can further polish. Grinding the edges off a small triangular file is a good way to go. I have several. Just make sure you polish the blind edge of the file or you can cause damage to the fingerboard.

Is a sharpie the same as a marker pen?

Best thing after recrowning is fingers and fine wet and dry used dry 600 to 1200 grit. A soft sanding block will not get to the lower edge of the frets to take out the file marks half as well. You can use one if you want. But I just run from top to bottom of the fret board by hand and then buff on a good fine wheel.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by Lt. Bob

Sounds like Muttley's got the best DIY method. A set of fret files (even cheap ones) would make the dressing a LOT easier!

Also, I'm curious how a straight edge would apply ...... most necks I've ever seen bow backwards when the tension is taken off the neck which you basically have to do in order to work on the frets.

Most shops that do a lot of setups and fret dressing use a neck jig that holds the neck level when the strings are off. I have one but you don't need one.

[travelin travis]

Originally Posted by Lt. Bob

Also, I'm curious how a straight edge would apply ...... most necks I've ever seen bow backwards when the tension is taken off the neck which you basically have to do in order to work on the frets.

The straight edge is used to check straightness of the fingerboard.

[travelin travis]

Originally Posted by muttley600

Is a sharpie the same as a marker pen?

apparently i missed that.

[Light]

Most of the guys in our shop hate the fret crowning files, because they lack the control we are used to. We all have 10" mill bastard files (or whatever the really fine ones are) that have the edges "safed," i.e., we've ground the edges smooth and kind of rounded. That's what everybody in the shop uses, though I have to admit that I've been known to use one of the Stew-Mac diamond (actually, they don't make that one anymore, now that I think about it) crowning files for stainless steel, cause you can wear out a brand new file in one pass doing stainless. (We've got every fret crowning file ever made, `cause we buy tools like a wino buys wine, but most of the guys in the shop have never really liked them).

For leveling, we use some old 14" mill bastard files epoxied into some wood block (which act as handles) that we've been using for this for about 30 years now. They're kind of dull, but that's actually kind of nice when you just want to take off a bit. Their easier to control. Frank Ford uses an old Stanley #6 plane with the blade and handles removed, and uses a piece of sand paper. But you should also note that Frank doesn't do fret dressing any more, because he finds that he is good enough at driving frets evenly that he can get away with just a light leveling and then rounding and shaping with just sandpaper, which takes less time for him (and so costs less money) than just a fret dress. Our shop manager CAN do that, but feels it leaves the frets flatter than he would like, so he almost never does. There is pretty much zero chance that you are that good (I'm sure not), so you will need to dress the frets. We've also got some of the Stew Mac fret leveling files, but they are just too damned agressive unless you need to take of a whole hell of a lot of material.

My dressing essential tools are: my Starret straight edge, our old leveling files, my "safed" mill bastard file, a New York City Subway card (the best fingerboard protector you'll ever try - we've got an old employee and friend who sends us stacks of them every year or two - works MUCH better than masking tape or those metal protectors that Stew-Mac sells), The old Stew Mac diamond crowning file (mostly just for rounding the ends of the frets, unless I'm working on stainless steel), successive grits of sand paper from 60 or 100 (depending on if I'm fretting a guitar for the first time, or just dressing it) to 2000, and OOOO steel wool. And I work the fingerboard with every one of those grits at the end of the process, 60, 100, 150, 180, 220, 320, 400, 600, 1000, 1200, 1500, 2000. It makes for a much better job.

But a fret dress in my shop is only about $150, and we are an expensive shop. I'd still recomend you take it to a pro, even if you only paid $200 for your guitar. Think of it this way, you've basically played the value out of the guitar, and now it's not really got any value because it is not really playable. If you spend $150, it's back to being worth $200. That's a winner, in my book. If your goal is to have a guitar to play, take it to a pro, if your goal is to learn how to do fret work, than go for it. You will find it is more difficult than it seems.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[Light]

Originally Posted by muttley600

Most shops that do a lot of setups and fret dressing use a neck jig that holds the neck level when the strings are off. I have one but you don't need one.

It is, in my opinion, those things are the biggest load of hooey that Dan has sold the industry.

We don't have one, and to be frank none of the really great repair people I know personally (except for Dan - who is a great repair person, and is more than capable of dressing frets without one, but he does like them) use them. Waste of time, if you ask me.

But then, I've done enough of these to be comfortable, so I don't know what it would be like if I'd had one the first time I tried. I might have liked it.

Oh, and for the record, I believe it takes at least a hundred fret jobs (dressing or refretting) to get good at dressing frets. At least, that's what it took me, and everyone else in the shop feels the same way.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[capnkid]

The trick is learning how to add metal to worn down frets.

[capnkid]

Originally Posted by Light

Most of the guys in our shop hate the fret crowning files, because they lack the control we are used to. We all have 10" mill bastard files (or whatever the really fine ones are) that have the edges "safed," i.e., we've ground the edges smooth and kind of rounded. That's what everybody in the shop uses, though I have to admit that I've been known to use one of the Stew-Mac diamond (actually, they don't make that one anymore, now that I think about it) crowning files for stainless steel, cause you can wear out a brand new file in one pass doing stainless. (We've got every fret crowning file ever made, `cause we buy tools like a wino buys wine, but most of the guys in the shop have never really liked them).

For leveling, we use some old 14" mill bastard files epoxied into some wood block (which act as handles) that we've been using for this for about 30 years now. They're kind of dull, but that's actually kind of nice when you just want to take off a bit. Their easier to control. Frank Ford uses an old Stanley #6 plane with the blade and handles removed, and uses a piece of sand paper. But you should also note that Frank doesn't do fret dressing any more, because he finds that he is good enough at driving frets evenly that he can get away with just a light leveling and then rounding and shaping with just sandpaper, which takes less time for him (and so costs less money) than just a fret dress. Our shop manager CAN do that, but feels it leaves the frets flatter than he would like, so he almost never does. There is pretty much zero chance that you are that good (I'm sure not), so you will need to dress the frets. We've also got some of the Stew Mac fret leveling files, but they are just too damned agressive unless you need to take of a whole hell of a lot of material.

My dressing essential tools are: my Starret straight edge, our old leveling files, my "safed" mill bastard file, a New York City Subway card (the best fingerboard protector you'll ever try - we've got an old employee and friend who sends us stacks of them every year or two - works MUCH better than masking tape or those metal protectors that Stew-Mac sells), The old Stew Mac diamond crowning file (mostly just for rounding the ends of the frets, unless I'm working on stainless steel), successive grits of sand paper from 60 or 100 (depending on if I'm fretting a guitar for the first time, or just dressing it) to 2000, and OOOO steel wool. And I work the fingerboard with every one of those grits at the end of the process, 60, 100, 150, 180, 220, 320, 400, 600, 1000, 1200, 1500, 2000. It makes for a much better job.

But a fret dress in my shop is only about $150, and we are an expensive shop. I'd still recomend you take it to a pro, even if you only paid $200 for your guitar. Think of it this way, you've basically played the value out of the guitar, and now it's not really got any value because it is not really playable. If you spend $150, it's back to being worth $200. That's a winner, in my book. If your goal is to have a guitar to play, take it to a pro, if your goal is to learn how to do fret work, than go for it. You will find it is more difficult than it seems.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Does that fret pressing tool that you can buy to put in your drill press work?

[NRS]

Originally Posted by cephus

There ain't no way I'm paying $200 to get a setup for a $199 guitar.

In the end though, is'nt it often the workmanship and attention to detail put into quality control aspects such as fret leveling that really seperate a $200 axe from a $1000 one? Look at the huge price variations in strats for example. People swear by certian models depending on where they're made and are willing to pay a real difference for it in hopes of avoiding things like the sloppy fretwork often associated with cheap sweatshop guitars.

I recently purchaced a $200 OLP JPMM knock off that I will at least be spending another $200-$300 in modifications on not to mention many hours of labor. Even with those mods the guitar will likely never command a much higher street value than what I originally paid for it but to me its playability value will be right up there with the $1500 real thing when I'm done.

[cephus]

In case you haven't put all my assundry threads together, this guitar has a floyd rose on it. It's a Kramer from 1985. The shop quote was essentially $200 labor to do what I needs done.

Let me ask this to you fellas who have shops. I'm sure you have the same upcharge for floyds because they are such a pain. I was thinking that I would temporarily block the floyd for the duration of the work. I would specifically like for the good shop to set the level of the floyd nut, which I believe is too high, and dress the frets to compensate for wear. If I convert this into a locking hard tail, would that eliminate the majority of the hassle inherent to floyds? I am going to the shop today to buy some parts from him that I could get for half price on the internets. I really respect the guy and I wouldn't want to come off like a bitch. Do you think that blocking it would allow the guy to treat the guitar just like any other?

[apl]

You can get a Carvin strat neck with locking nut for less than that. Their fretwork's way good.

[crazydoc]

One of these will dress up your frets in no time at all. Then you can mod it for some entertainment.
http://www.hockomock.net/dowling/prerace/index.htm

[cephus]

Originally Posted by apl

You can get a Carvin strat neck with locking nut for less than that. Their fretwork's way good.

This endeavor has a certain spiritual component. I have a new neck downstairs already routed for the floyd. It was my original plan to put the new neck on. Now, I kinda want the intact kramer, if only for the sake of nostalgia.

I don't know if you were playing guitar then, but EVH was on every other page of guitar player magazine holding a Kramer with a floyd rose. I truly look at my guitar as a symbol of the times I was part of.

Whenever I pick it up, it's like a time machine. It gives me that teenage looseness and cockiness. Plus it lets me make airplane noises.

I can see when I look at this that all of the frets from about the third to the 15th dip in compared to the higher ones. I never played anything any higher and those frets still have this original round profile all the way across. I don't think there is anyway I can ever get this thing to play right all over with that disparity.

I think it totally sucks that it's cheaper to buy a new neck than to get the original one refurbished. Makes me think that the bottom is gonna fall out of the luthier business because of the market being flooded with chinese banana wood licensed restoration. I appreciate the value add from using a good guitar tech, but alot of people don't. All they recognize is that it'd be way cheaper to go onto ebay and buy a mighty mite than to get a refret.

[Milnoque]

Cephus,

Unless I missed it, nobody has mentioned the possibility of loose frets. Before you start dressing anything I suggest you check your fretboard closely and learn to love your straight edge. A loose fret or frets can cause the problems you have and fret dressing would not be helpful.

Just my 2 cents

[MCI2424]

Originally Posted by cephus

In case you haven't put all my assundry threads together, this guitar has a floyd rose on it. It's a Kramer from 1985. The shop quote was essentially $200 labor to do what I needs done.

Let me ask this to you fellas who have shops. I'm sure you have the same upcharge for floyds because they are such a pain. I was thinking that I would temporarily block the floyd for the duration of the work. I would specifically like for the good shop to set the level of the floyd nut, which I believe is too high, and dress the frets to compensate for wear. If I convert this into a locking hard tail, would that eliminate the majority of the hassle inherent to floyds? I am going to the shop today to buy some parts from him that I could get for half price on the internets. I really respect the guy and I wouldn't want to come off like a bitch. Do you think that blocking it would allow the guy to treat the guitar just like any other?

Tape between the frets with masking tape. Run a good fine mill file legthwise until all frets show a even cut and crown with a fine small file and polish with a dremel tool and some metal polish. That's it in a nutshell. Don't take too much off. I have done this for years and it works everytime.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by Light

It is, in my opinion, those things are the biggest load of hooey that Dan has sold the industry.

We don't have one, and to be frank none of the really great repair people I know personally (except for Dan - who is a great repair person, and is more than capable of dressing frets without one, but he does like them) use them. Waste of time, if you ask me.

But then, I've done enough of these to be comfortable, so I don't know what it would be like if I'd had one the first time I tried. I might have liked it.

Oh, and for the record, I believe it takes at least a hundred fret jobs (dressing or refretting) to get good at dressing frets. At least, that's what it took me, and everyone else in the shop feels the same way.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Made my own and not for fretting or dressing but for more major neck work. Very handy for removing fretboards, heating and straightening warped necks, shooting and re radiusing replacement boards. Any job where you need to hold the neck in place and have two hands free or have the neck held rigid for any length of time under tension. Have used it for fret dressing but takes to long to get it set.

Your missing a good repair clamping option if haven't got one. You don't need a fancy expensive one I built mine in less than a day some years ago and it's still going strong. The idea has been around for years. I copied mine from a guy long since dead that used it in the Dolmesch workshops in the sixties.

They certainly are not required for a fret dress or for most fretting work though and would be last on the list of essential tools that Cephus was asking about.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by capnkid

Does that fret pressing tool that you can buy to put in your drill press work?

Yes but they are far from essential. If you going to do a lot of fret work then an arbour press would be a better option. They are no good for acoustics above the 10 fret however.

I have a modified set of mole grips which I can switch out the clamp heads. Similar to the Jaws system stewmac sells. I still rarely use anything but a block, pin/toffee hammer and some care. I actually still enjoy fretting even after 20 plus years.

[cephus]

The shop guy said the neck was pretty much a write off. In his opinion, there ain't a whole lotta meat left on the worn ones.

I know the neck is functional. I used it for several years ont he jambolin. I had intended to put the kramer neck back in the right place so I could quickly get a floyd guitar up and running. I did and now it looks like the floyd is worth installing on another guitar.

As far as levelling goes, one of the biggest contributor to the difference in wear is that my clown guitar that I used the neck on for so many years joins the body at something very conservative like the 15th fret. I can't even really reach those higher frets because there is no cutaway.

I am thinking that I can rather forgivingly take some height off the frets that I can't reach anyway so that I can get the 7th fret on the G string to work again at least.

The neck feels nice to me, but evidently I am a terrible judge of guitar harware. This guy told me that it had a twist. Since it's arguably garbage, there is not really anything to loose from going at it with sandpaper, scotchbrite, files or dremel, especially if I can contain the damage to those higher frets.

[Light]

Originally Posted by capnkid

Does that fret pressing tool that you can buy to put in your drill press work?

I like it, but only for new fingerboards which haven't been glued to the fingerboard yet. You have to be careful with it though, because if the radius of the caul doesn't match up perfectly with the fingerboards radius, the fret doesn't seat perfectly - i.e., if their is too much curve to the caul, the frets will be a little high in the middle. It is, strangely, not that big of a deal, because they are still in quite solidly, but it's not right, so you need to take care of it somehow.

Also, I'm with Muttley, the arbor press version is much preferable. That's not what the drill press is designed to do, so it doesn't do it very well. An arbor press, however, IS designed to do essentially this job, so it works very well.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[Light]

Originally Posted by cephus

If I convert this into a locking hard tail, would that eliminate the majority of the hassle inherent to floyds?

A little better, but not all that much. The problem is as much to do with setting the intonation on a Floyd (which is a pain) as anything else. Even with the little tool for doing it, it's a pain in the ass.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi