Why is my song so quiet while theirs isn't?

[NTK88]

Ok I just finished a mix of a song, and found that, even though my song was clipping by +1 or 2 db at some very very short points on snare hits, my song was much much quieter than a professional recording. I opened up "Enter Sandman" by Metallica in Adobe Audition, and found that #1 their audio didnt go above -4db, and their audio was much clearer. When I try to increase the volume of my song to the level theirs is through hearing, I am clipping by about 6 db in some spots, and my mix goes to all hell and sounds like muddy crap.

I have tried EQing and giving each instrument its own space even in this mix, but I find that it doesnt work very well for me. It sounds better than the original recording, but when the final mix is compressed and normalized, or w/e I try to increase volume, its... well not very pleasing or rewarding but more or less demoralizing.

And I know some people will say well its ok for a mix to be quiet, yes I know that but the meters are telling me my song should be 2-3 db louder than metallicas, yet it sounds 5-7 db quieter to my ears.

[bigwillz24]

one word buddy...

Mastering

[NTK88]

That doesnt quite help me out here.
How does one master without a crap load of money?

I should be able to master in Adobe right?
There are people on these forums with songs that have normal volume and punch to them. In order to get mine to sound like a real recording I have to boost my volume of my speakers.

[Massive Master]

(A) Mastering isn't just about "getting it loud" (although it's certainly the place to handle it).

(B) If Enter Sandman is showing you peaks at -4dBFS, there's something wrong.

(C) You can always ram it into a limiter. Depending on the mix, that *might* get you more volume before it falls apart.

(D) Comparing "home brew" limited budget, limited knowledge recordings against arguably one of the most well-produced benchmark rock albums of all time, recorded by *teams* of industry professionals at every single step in the game using the greatest gear available going over every detail for months on end and expecting similar results doesn't make much sense...

[NTK88]

Originally Posted by Massive Master

(A) Mastering isn't just about "getting it loud" (although it's certainly the place to handle it).

(B) If Enter Sandman is showing you peaks at -4dBFS, there's something wrong.

(C) You can always ram it into a limiter. Depending on the mix, that *might* get you more volume before it falls apart.

(D) Comparing "home brew" limited budget, limited knowledge recordings against arguably one of the most well-produced benchmark rock albums of all time, recorded by *teams* of industry professionals at every single step in the game using the greatest gear available going over every detail for months on end and expecting similar results doesn't make much sense...

Im not trying to compare sound quality, I know that would be a stupid thing to try and do.
I took a closer look at sad but true off of that same album and found the peak level to be -3db.

I am trying to figure out why my song, while according to the meters is louder than a professional song, its actualy quite lower in audible volume.

[NTK88]

If it helps here is the song in question.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page...?bandID=662049

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by NTK88

I am trying to figure out why my song, while according to the meters is louder than a professional song, its actualy quite lower in audible volume.

Peak levels mean very little to the apparent volume. What's important is the average volume of the mix, also known as the density of the mix, which is measured in decibles RMS, not decibles peak.

Imagine a click that peaks at 0dBFS but only clicks once a second. Not very loud. Now imagine filling in the quite spaces with a 1kHz sine wave at -10dBFS. Now the peaks are no louder, but the overall sound is.

In Audition you can look at the mixdown on the edit screen, pull down the "Analyze" menu, and select "Statistics". I think you'll find that the Metallica pressing has a much higher RMS rating than your homebrew stuff does.

G.

[NTK88]

So the only time it really peaks is at those few quick snare hits.
I get it now and since when I normalize it makes the snare hits -3db and the rest of the song is actualy hovering at about -12 db. Shouldnt it be ok if I normalize then and let those few snare hits clip?

[eraos]

Originally Posted by NTK88

Im not trying to compare sound quality, I know that would be a stupid thing to try and do.
I took a closer look at sad but true off of that same album and found the peak level to be -3db.

I am trying to figure out why my song, while according to the meters is louder than a professional song, its actualy quite lower in audible volume.

Peaks are different than apparent loudness. Apparent loudness is due more from average levels than peak levels. That's just how the ear works.

Because of proper mastering (and proper everything along the way, as Massive said), a professionally produced album can be considerably louder than one produced at home.

[eraos]

Took me too long to type that reply.

[NTK88]

Originally Posted by eraos

Peaks are different than apparent loudness. Apparent loudness is due more from average levels than peak levels. That's just how the ear works.

Because of proper mastering (and proper everything along the way, as Massive said), a professionally produced album can be considerably louder than one produced at home.

hmm well here might be why this seems so much quieter than my others.
We recorded the raw sound at about -20 db.

Some one at another site suggested that we record much much lower than we had been. The raw sound would peak at about -6db on each track.

IDK maybe they were crazy, but what they told me seem'd like it would work.

[masteringhouse]

Originally Posted by NTK88

So the only time it really peaks is at those few quick snare hits.
I get it now and since when I normalize it makes the snare hits -3db and the rest of the song is actualy hovering at about -12 db. Shouldnt it be ok if I normalize then and let those few snare hits clip?

Try combining a compressor to "average" overall levels, followed by a limiter to reduce peaks, then raise the overall level to somewhere slightly below 0dBFS.

[eraos]

Originally Posted by NTK88

hmm well here might be why this seems so much quieter than my others.
We recorded the raw sound at about -20 db.

Some one at another site suggested that we record much much lower than we had been. The raw sound would peak at about -6db on each track.

The general consensus around here is that recording in that range is a good place to start.

Basically, in the recording and mixing stages, do not worry about loudness. A good mix should be the priority, not volume.

[NTK88]

Originally Posted by eraos

The general consensus around here is that recording in that range is a good place to start.

Basically, in the recording and mixing stages, do not worry about loudness. A good mix should be the priority, not volume.

Hmm idk then
I suppose I could post some of the raw tracks to make sure the recording part of this isnt the issue.

[sikter]

Originally Posted by NTK88

Im not trying to compare sound quality, I know that would be a stupid thing to try and do.
I took a closer look at sad but true off of that same album and found the peak level to be -3db.

I am trying to figure out why my song, while according to the meters is louder than a professional song, its actualy quite lower in audible volume.

There are options for stereo panning mode in AA 2,0.
If you have chosen “-3db center” then your AA 2,0 is mixing down your session to peaks touching -3db.
Your picture is showing that, I think.
This is probably to make headroom for mastering process.

[NTK88]

Originally Posted by sikter

There are options for stereo panning mode in AA 2,0.
If you have chosen “-3db center” then your AA 2,0 is mixing down your session to peaks touching -3db.
Your picture is showing that, I think.
This is probably to make headroom for mastering process.

Hmm do you know where I change that option?
I am new to adobe.

[Change of POETS]

If your snare hits are peaking at 9db louder that the rest of your mix, I think you have a problem in your mix...

Try running the snare through a compressor with light settings, maybe 3db or 4db gain reduction, and see if you can't control it's peaks while maintaining it's volume. You'll have less issues when compressing the entire mix in mastering.

[NTK88]

I would have just turned it down, but the drums are on a pair of tracks that get panned hard right and hard left.

We have to mix down all the mics into 2 tracks with a mixer during recording because our recorder only has 2 inputs.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

The pan mode is completly unrelated to your situation, NTK.

Re-read Masteringhouse's post, as that's exactly what you need.

Normalizing alone won't help you here because the dynamic range between your peaks and your program average is a bit large. Tame the worst of your snare peaks with some compression or with some manual editing to lessen that disparity. Then try running that result through a limiter, pushing the volume(gain) only to where the tonal quality of the music starts to get kinda crispy sounding, then back off of that a dB or two.

This will give you several more dB in volume. You still may mot make it to Metallica volume, but that would be because the talent and gear on both sides of the glass on that album were beyond what you have available to you. You can't expect a pro result without pro technique and pro gear.

But you can get close, and the above steps are a good start.

And don't worry so much about volume anyway. If the song is good and the performance is good, people will no even care about the volume. Inf the song and/or the performance is so-so, then volume isn't going to make it any better.

G.

[NTK88]

I know I wasnt asking why the guitar solo wasn't played as well as they do it, I was just wondering why my meters were lying!

[LogicDeLuxe]

Good masters usually are between -20 and -12 dBFS RMS sine. Unfortunately there are also many CDs louder than this, and in most cases they suffer quality because of this. You shouldn't try imitating those. (That Metallica album is a good example of mastering, imho)

Originally Posted by NTK88

That doesnt quite help me out here.
How does one master without a crap load of money?

Experience is much more important than the software you use. I am perfectly satisfied with Adobe Audition myself.

I took a closer look at sad but true off of that same album and found the peak level to be -3db.

Sure, you didn't load an MP3 with MP3Gain applied? On my CD it looks very similar, except it peaks at 0 dB. The RMS is about -12 dBFS sine. Your mix is about -18 dBFS, there's the difference. As you merely occasionally go above -6 dB, you really can use a limiter and boost it by 6 dB. I tried this and it sounds just fine.

[Ironklad Audio]

ahhh...the age-old question arises once again...

"WHY DOESN'T OUR BASEMENT CD SOUND LIKE THE BLACK ALBUM?"






#1 answer: because you aren't fucking metallica

[DAS19]

Originally Posted by Massive Master

(D) Comparing "home brew" limited budget, limited knowledge recordings against arguably one of the most well-produced benchmark rock albums of all time, recorded by *teams* of industry professionals at every single step in the game using the greatest gear available going over every detail for months on end and expecting similar results doesn't make much sense...

This is what I would say in a nut shell.

[Massive Master]

I hate to even put it like that (as I get accused of being "discouraging" or "snobbish" or what not).

However - I'm a reasonably good driver. I have a reasonably nice car. But if I tried to enter the Indianapolis 500 with my car and my skills, I have a feeling (just a feeling) that I wouldn't quite qualify for the race.

I also feel that if I had the opportunity to jump inside one of the greatest and fastest Indy cars ever, I *still* wouldn't qualify.

I wouldn't qualify in *my* car because the car doesn't have the capability to win - although my driving skills are beyond the car.

I wouldn't qualify in the "Indy" car because the car is beyond my skills.

[masteringhouse]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

Re-read Masteringhouse's post, as that's exactly what you need.

Normalizing alone won't help you here because the dynamic range between your peaks and your program average is a bit large. Tame the worst of your snare peaks with some compression or with some manual editing to lessen that disparity. Then try running that result through a limiter, pushing the volume(gain) only to where the tonal quality of the music starts to get kinda crispy sounding, then back off of that a dB or two.

Thanks G. I was wondering if anyone actually read it.

And Mr. Scrip is also correct, good analogy. But by all means give 'er a go, just don't crash and burn.