Confused about what cables I need

[takk]

I have an SM Pro Audio PR8E 8 channel mic preamp (balanced 1/4" TRS outs) which I need to plug into an M-Audio Delta 1010LT with RCA female ins.

Do I have to use a "balanced" TRS 1/4" to RCA cable? Should I use a balanced cable?

[MadAudio]

Originally Posted by takk

I have an SM Pro Audio PR8E 8 channel mic preamp (balanced 1/4" TRS outs) which I need to plug into an M-Audio Delta 1010LT with RCA female ins.

Do I have to use a "balanced" TRS 1/4" to RCA cable? Should I use a balanced cable?

No. Since there's no such thing as balanced RCA, you'll be fine using unbalanced 1/4" to RCA cables.

I hear that mic pre is pretty crappy though. If you get some good sounds out of it, please post for us to hear.

[takk]

Thanks for the info.

I've heard mixed opinions on the PR8E it. If it matters, it's not the $99 older version (PR8) the PR8E is $199 MSRP. I do not have, nor do I want a mixing console, I work 100% in the box. Only preamp I have now is an M-Audio AudioBuddy which I have been very happy with. I figured the PR8E would give me enough inputs to record a rock band without breaking the bank. And at the worst it could be used solely for drums if it turns out to be a below-average preamp. One of the things I've heard is it has a dip in the 90 Khz area, so may need to bring up the low end with EQ on things like bass guitar and kick drum.

but I've heard good things about it, too! So we'll see.

[MadAudio]

A dip in the 90 Hz range (not kHz, that's even higher than a dog can hear) is probably not such a bad thing. Anyway, good luck.

[takk]

I meant 90 kHz

[takk]

or 90 Hz. Whatever, the LOW one

[MickB]

Yes, that old M-Audio confusion here, I fancy.

You see, the thing is that the M-Audio devices like the 1010 have TRS connections alright, but they're UNBALANCED!

Yes, unbalanced, balanced 'compatible' connectors! The ring circuit has a dummy load in its works, or some such subterfuge.

So, mate, any damn cable works! Don't panic!

[cusebassman]

M-Audio stuff is TRS out but not balanced?

So my DMP-3 has TRS outs but is not balanced.

Hmm.

"We are not amused!!!"

[SRR]

Originally Posted by MickB

Yes, that old M-Audio confusion here, I fancy.

You see, the thing is that the M-Audio devices like the 1010 have TRS connections alright, but they're UNBALANCED!

Yes, unbalanced, balanced 'compatible' connectors! The ring circuit has a dummy load in its works, or some such subterfuge.

So, mate, any damn cable works! Don't panic!

M-Audio Delta 1010LT has RCA ins and outs...except the two pre amp/line ins on one and two which are XLR, but yes when the card is switched to line those are unbalanced ins. I run through 30+ feet of cable with unbalanced cables and have no problems.

[ofajen]

Originally Posted by MickB

Yes, that old M-Audio confusion here, I fancy.

You see, the thing is that the M-Audio devices like the 1010 have TRS connections alright, but they're UNBALANCED!

Yes, unbalanced, balanced 'compatible' connectors! The ring circuit has a dummy load in its works, or some such subterfuge.

So, mate, any damn cable works! Don't panic!

You know, I didn't believe you until I checked it out, but I think you are correct. I ran a steady tone thru my Mackie and ran the balanced out through a TRS cable to one of the "balanced" line inputs on my M-Audio interface and set the level at 0 VU. Then I plugged a TS cable between the same two points and still got 0 VU. A proper balanced input should show about 6 dB difference between the two, since the Mackie has electronically balanced outputs and the TS plug ties one side to ground and cuts the voltage in half. It doesn't matter on my preamps, since they are all transformer balanced.

Thanks for pointing this out. From now on, I'll unbalance my preamps at the bay with TS cords, rather than trust to their unspecified method of unbalancing.

Cheers,

Otto

[MickB]

You know, I would like to be sitting here all smug, as if I found that out for myself.

But I'm a fraud. A mate of mine who used to be a 'proper' engineer and producer (ie - who knows how to build and maintain studios and equipment as well as use 'em) told me that.

Still, nice to bask in the reflected glory!

[TragikRemix]

what the hell is a TRS unbalanced??

does that exists? isnt that the purpose of the R in tRs?

m-audio=Digidesigns fucked up step sister.

[ofajen]

Originally Posted by MickB

Yes, that old M-Audio confusion here, I fancy.

You see, the thing is that the M-Audio devices like the 1010 have TRS connections alright, but they're UNBALANCED!

Yes, unbalanced, balanced 'compatible' connectors! The ring circuit has a dummy load in its works, or some such subterfuge.

So, mate, any damn cable works! Don't panic!

I'm curious as to what exactly the circuit does. I would like to know whether it properly deals with both transformered outputs and electronically balanced outputs. If it just ties the minus leg to ground, that is OK for transformered outputs but undesirable for electronically balanced outputs.

I had always had a concern about its maximum rated input of +14 dBu. Now I know that it only accepts one leg, I see it's less of a problem, since that corresponds to a +20 dBu balanced signal. It explains why, when the +16 dBu light lights up on my MixPre, it's not quite overloading the M-Audio input, since it's only seeing about +10 dBu (MixPre outputs are electronically balanced).

I'm assuming the outputs are similar, since upon careful reading in the manual, I note that it says the outputs are "compatible" with 1/4" TRS balanced connections, not that it actually has electronically balanced outputs, as I had presumed. Matter of fact, I had noted some puzzling level behavior when connecting up the supposedly balanced "recorder" output to a pair of VU meters. Perhaps the lack of a true, balanced output explains that behavior. I'll have to check it out.

Cheers,

Otto

[boingoman]

Originally Posted by ofajen

A proper balanced input should show about 6 dB difference between the two,

Otto

Not always. There is lots of gear that doesn't have the 6db difference when unbalancing a signal or using an unbalanced vs. balanced signal. Anything servo-balanced, for instance.

[boingoman]

Originally Posted by cusebassman

M-Audio stuff is TRS out but not balanced?

So my DMP-3 has TRS outs but is not balanced.

Hmm.

"We are not amused!!!"

No. Your DMP-3 has balanced outs.

And I'm going to check with M-Audio, because when you see a listing for a connector that is balanced/unbalanced, the idea is usually that it is balanced but can accept unbalanced signals, like you see on many modern mixers. Some of the 1010 connections are unbalanced, some are not. I'd like to nail this down, because this is how really bad info gets spread around.

[boingoman]

Originally Posted by ofajen

I'm assuming the outputs are similar, since upon careful reading in the manual, I note that it says the outputs are "compatible" with 1/4" TRS balanced connections, not that it actually has electronically balanced outputs, as I had presumed.
Otto

Again, the wording (to me) implies balanced connections that are compatible with unbalanced gear, since that is the more typical meaning. Like on a mixer where its says balanced/unbalanced.

[ofajen]

Originally Posted by boingoman

Not always. There is lots of gear that doesn't have the 6db difference when unbalancing a signal or using an unbalanced vs. balanced signal. Anything servo-balanced, for instance.

I didn't say always. I was speaking about this Mackie, which has the typical active balanced outputs. I'm aware of the special cases. I was testing the proposition that my M-Audio interface unbalances at its input without actually taking the difference of the plus and minus legs. The evidence I have indicates this is correct.

Cheers,

Otto