Best starter setup for a recording newb?

[jrhager84]

hello. This is my first post, and I am in an Idaho band, Ambient. We are looking to basically aquire parts to make a recording setup (or at least a semi-decent one). Here's what we have:

PC stuff:
AMD x2 4400+ processor
Delta 1010LT card
400+gb hdd space (SATA)
1gb RAM (2-2-2-5 timing)
X1900XTX vid card

Audio Stuff:

Mackie 1604 VLZ pro 16ch mixer (analog w/ 8 outputs)
Mackie PA System (2 SRM 450's, 1 15" Sub)
Crate BV120H blue voodoo full stack (8x10 vintage 30's)
Crate 1 x 15 Bass amp (for now)
Shure Beta 57
Shure Beta 52a
3 x Senheiser e604 tom mics
*planning on getting* 2 x Shure sm81 condensers

Instruments:
Tama Superstar Custom kit, Iron Cobra pedals, Zildjian K custom/A custom cymbals, Aquarian/Evans heads
Gibson SG Guitar
Charvel Bass (4 string)
Gibson Epiphone (I believe) semi-hollow body *for now*
Shure Beta 58 wireless mic (for live sound)

What we'd like to know are these things:

What do we NEED for a good recording sound?
What would we WANT for a better sound?
What software is recommended for new users? (Logic Audio, Cubase, etc.)
What plugins are absolutely MUST-HAVE's (reverb, compressor, gate, limiter, etc.)
What rack items should we purchase (on a limited budget vs. unlimited budget)

We'd like to get near studio-quality sound without having to hit the studio every time we want to record. I'm also willing to build soundproofing myself if need be. I just need to know what you guys usually do to get a good sound... Any ideas?

Here's what we'd like to eventually sound like in OUR studio (if not better):

www.myspace.com/ambientband

Please let me know what I can do to make our sound any better (from a recording standpoint). Any comments are greatly appreciated

Well getting a studio sound isn't just dependent on the gear. It's dependent on the musicians, instruments, the rooms, and the engineers.

Your computer looks good. Might want to consider another gig of RAM but probably won't need it.

What do we NEED for a good recording sound?

Good instruments, good rooms to record in, good gear, and a lot of experience with recording/mixing. I would invest in room treatment first. Get a good tracking/mixing room made.

What software is recommended for new users? (Logic Audio, Cubase, etc.)

I started on Adobe Audition. I then went to Reaper. Reaper is only $40, and it's got everything you need and more. You could also consider Cubase, or even Sonar, but those will probably have a steeper learning curve. Reaper is very easy to use. The software will have the littlest effect on sound quality. What's important is that you find one that is easy to use and one that has all the features you need.

What plugins are absolutely MUST-HAVE's (reverb, compressor, gate, limiter, etc.)

I would try to find good, free plugins first so you can spend your money on more important things first. Once you master the free stuff then it will be worth your money to buy the more "professional" plug-ins. But there are a lot of great free plugins out there.

Reverb - GlaceVerb

Compressor, limiter, etc. - Kjaerhus Audio

I'm sure there are better ones out there than that, but I've always had good results with those after taking a lot of time learning how to use them.

The UAD-1 card gets a lot of good press on this board and so do the Waves Plug-Ins.

Here's what we'd like to eventually sound like in OUR studio (if not better):

www.myspace.com/ambientband

Sounds pretty good. I've heard better in the MP3 Clinic. Maybe you should look around there for people who record the same stuff and ask what setup they use.

Hope this helps at least a little.

[jrhager84]

well I meant more like rack items and such. Right now as it sits, I have my mackie board mixing all channels to the tape output via RCA to my Delta 1010. I would like to eventually have everything singled out, ya know, so I'd need 12 simultaneous tracks... Any suggestions on interfaces?

[TelePaul]

Originally Posted by jrhager84

well I meant more like rack items and such. Right now as it sits, I have my mackie board mixing all channels to the tape output via RCA to my Delta 1010. I would like to eventually have everything singled out, ya know, so I'd need 12 simultaneous tracks... Any suggestions on interfaces?

Presonus Firestudio is expandable up to 24 pre-ins but comes with 8. If you were happy with the drum sound through the mixer, you could use two tracks for the mixers left and right outputs...that does limit your options when it comes to the drums however, but you probably knew that.

I do like software recording, and the Presonus stuff comes with some pretty nice preamps. A good sequencer helps, and you'll be surprised by how much functionality you can get with it. However, if you plan on recording 'live', with a dozen tracks simultaneously, you are gonna have to work hard at isolating elements of your practice room to prevent alot of bleed.

[jrhager84]

Well I wasn't happy with the sound of my drums through the mixer...it was HORRIBLE. The stuff on the myspace was tracked individually (at someone else's house).

The only reason we need 12 tracks is because I play on a HUGE kit (2 overheads, bass, 2 snare mics, 6 toms) so that's 12 tracks right there. I just want to be able to track my drums individually, which is why we need the interface. Other than that, we WILL be tracking each instrument seperately. If I can avoid using the mixer and just go directly into the interface I wouldn't mind either. I'm looking for something that'll really help out a clean, low-noise sound.

I'm getting ~600-700 bucks to spend on the band, and I'd like to get us more recording-ready. We're working on getting our practice space treated as well...Thanks for all the suggestions and stuff guys. You rock!

[jrhager84]

Also:

I'm very stupid, so I'm not sure what that has to do with my 1010LT

I only have 8 inputs on my sound card...would I need to upgrade that as well, or does the interface record via Ethernet/etc.?

If you want 12 separate tracks for your drum kit then you need an interface/sound card with 12 inputs.

If the 1010LT has 8 inputs then you can just get another one of those and put it in your computer. That will give you 16.

Don't forget that you need 12 channels of pre's if you're going to be using 12 mics.

[jrhager84]

So what you're saying is not only would I need another Firestudio card, but I'd also need another 1010LT as well? I'm very confused, because the Firestudio interface connects to the PC via firewire, which I thought meant it didn't even go through the sound card at all......Please explain, I'm confused as hell...

[Mindset]

You can either run dual 1010's for double the inputs, or run 1 firestudio.

[jrhager84]

so what you're saying is with the firestudio, the card isn't needed...right?

Alrighty then! Firestudio here I come!

I can plug my drums directly into the interface, right? So I wouldn't have to go through my board?

[Freddy]

With most firewire interfaces, each input is delivered over Firewire into your DAW as a separate output.

So, all 8 mic pres come into your comp as a separate input.

You can add another Firestudio if you want more mic pres.

[jrhager84]

Heck yes... I'll end up getting 2 firestudios and daisy chaining them... That would work wonderfully... Hell yeah!

[Mindset]

I don't believe that you need to "daisy chain" them. Just installing the second one, will give you the extra inputs. you'll be able to choose what input goes to what.

What do we NEED for a good recording sound?
What would we WANT for a better sound?
What software is recommended for new users? (Logic Audio, Cubase, etc.)
What plugins are absolutely MUST-HAVE's (reverb, compressor, gate, limiter, etc.)
What rack items should we purchase (on a limited budget vs. unlimited budget)

If your going to be using rack gear, I suggest keeping the mixer, and grabbing a patch bay with it.

Waves makes some 'must have' plug-ins. Software wise, that all depends on you. I myself, use Pro Tools because I can be able to transfer sessions from the studio back & forth from other studios, and including my home studio. What you need for a good sound, is to learn how to mix. That's basically the most important part of it all.

Rack mount gear, you'll need compressors, time based effects units, equalizers etc. I personally like Fatman comp's, LA2A, DBX 166's, and a few other ones. I usually only use the SPX90 for reverb/delay & Great River parametric eq's, and another parametric EQ but the name crossed my mind.

[TelePaul]

Originally Posted by Freddy

With most firewire interfaces, each input is delivered over Firewire into your DAW as a separate output.

So, all 8 mic pres come into your comp as a separate input.

You can add another Firestudio if you want more mic pres.

One firestudio will support up to 24 ins (16 extra) via the lightpipe connection; you can get more pres without needing a second firestudio:

http://www.presonus.com/digimax_fs.html

[Freddy]

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that.

It does strike me that we may be going off track here though. And we are blowing the budget.

As suggested earlier, another 1010LT will give you the extra inputs, and be a lot cheaper, surely?

[Freddy]

Oops .. double post

[jrhager84]

The problem with the 1010LT is that the inputs are RCA, so I'd have to buy special cables to use, which I really don't want to do... Plus I think the sound would be a LOT cleaner with the firestudio

My budget just for a good recording setup for 8 tracks right now would be ~1000 dollars. I'm thinking the 600 dollar firestudio, 40 dollar 800/400/200/100 firewire card, etc.

I'm not sure why I'd need my Mackie mixer, I thought I could plug my drums directly into the interface, adjust the levels accordingly, then record raw, using plug-ins and eq to get the sound I want (always better to record clean, right?). The only REAL reason for the interface and whatnot is for 2 possible situations:

1. Me tracking my drums individually for better, cleaner sound

2. The ability to track 'live' at practices, getting rough ideas on hard drive for analysis/etc.

With the firestudio, I'd have 9 headphone pres as well, so I wouldn't have to buy a headphone amp....which saves me money down the line as well.

My budget (per se) is endless, as I have ~600/mo to spend on gear, but right off the bat, I'd like to get the ball rolling in the right direction by buying the gear that will have the MOST positive impact on the setup.

[TelePaul]

Originally Posted by jrhager84

The problem with the 1010LT is that the inputs are RCA, so I'd have to buy special cables to use, which I really don't want to do... Plus I think the sound would be a LOT cleaner with the firestudio

My budget just for a good recording setup for 8 tracks right now would be ~1000 dollars. I'm thinking the 600 dollar firestudio, 40 dollar 800/400/200/100 firewire card, etc.

I'm not sure why I'd need my Mackie mixer, I thought I could plug my drums directly into the interface, adjust the levels accordingly, then record raw, using plug-ins and eq to get the sound I want (always better to record clean, right?). The only REAL reason for the interface and whatnot is for 2 possible situations:

1. Me tracking my drums individually for better, cleaner sound

2. The ability to track 'live' at practices, getting rough ideas on hard drive for analysis/etc.

With the firestudio, I'd have 9 headphone pres as well, so I wouldn't have to buy a headphone amp....which saves me money down the line as well.

My budget (per se) is endless, as I have ~600/mo to spend on gear, but right off the bat, I'd like to get the ball rolling in the right direction by buying the gear that will have the MOST positive impact on the setup.

Well the firestudio is a good buy, no matter what you end up doing. It's upgradeable and has excellent pres and packaged software. You seem pretty keen on your drums being tracked as well as possible; but in a live sense, you're really only gonna need 4 mics; provided you have a standard rock set up, this still allows the otehr members of your band (2 guitarists, singer, bassist) to track along-side you. You could also go throught the mixer if you needed backing vocals.

[Freddy]

In that case, slightly more, but you may want to look at the RME Fireface too.

[chestwick91]

yeah you got most of the gear...but is the knoeledge there?

[Mindset]

Originally Posted by jrhager84

The problem with the 1010LT is that the inputs are RCA, so I'd have to buy special cables to use, which I really don't want to do... Plus I think the sound would be a LOT cleaner with the firestudio

My budget just for a good recording setup for 8 tracks right now would be ~1000 dollars. I'm thinking the 600 dollar firestudio, 40 dollar 800/400/200/100 firewire card, etc.

I'm not sure why I'd need my Mackie mixer, I thought I could plug my drums directly into the interface, adjust the levels accordingly, then record raw, using plug-ins and eq to get the sound I want (always better to record clean, right?). The only REAL reason for the interface and whatnot is for 2 possible situations:

1. Me tracking my drums individually for better, cleaner sound

2. The ability to track 'live' at practices, getting rough ideas on hard drive for analysis/etc.

With the firestudio, I'd have 9 headphone pres as well, so I wouldn't have to buy a headphone amp....which saves me money down the line as well.

My budget (per se) is endless, as I have ~600/mo to spend on gear, but right off the bat, I'd like to get the ball rolling in the right direction by buying the gear that will have the MOST positive impact on the setup.

When you run rack mount gear, there's a correct way to run it, and there's a wrong way to work it. For example, some people, run reverb as an inline,

Source - Reverb Unit - Delta 1010

which is the wrong way to hook it up. You'll have more problems later.... Hooking a mixer up along with it, you could still use the inputs from the mic's to the mixer, from mixer out's to the firestudio, BUT, while that's all happening, instead of using effects WHILE you record, you route out the Aux sends to reverb unit, and to aux return. This gives you 1 dry, and 1 wet signal. If you don't like the reverb as much, you turn it down, without affecting the overall mix. That would be considered side chaining the effects unit. Some things, require you to inline patch, like compressors etc. This is how we do it in the full multi million dollar studio, this is how I do it at home, and every pro studio I go to.

[jrhager84]

I'm not sure if I follow. Here's what I want to do:

Run my drum mics DIRECTLY into the firestudio (or out through the outs on my mackie) into the computer

Mackie => outs => Firestudio => DAW

With my 1010lt, I'd need special unbalanced 1/4" to RCA wires made (to the tune of ~150 dollars) to go from my direct outs to the inputs of the 1010 (not my first choice) which also means I'm STUCK with 8 outs (my mackie only has 8 outs) and my drums need 11 tracks (eventually, I'm not recording my addt'l 3 toms)

With the firestudio, I could go from either the 1/4" outs of my board to the firestudio, or just go directly into the firestudio (I'm only looking for a dry signal anyways) I can EQ/effect the drums in post. I could also buy more firestudios, and have more pres to work with, and have no limitation in tracks, OR special cables, and also has the functionality of a headphone amp (~125 bucks)

Plus is comes w/ a software suite I could actually use (which I'm also debating either a UAD-1 or LM setup) which would also have software I could use.

Is there something about the firestudio I should know about?

[jrhager84]

Originally Posted by chestwick91

yeah you got most of the gear...but is the knoeledge there?

Well, I can't help but chuckle as you didn't even spell "knowledge" right....

I'm also not sure if I should take offense by that comment or not. It didn't seem helpful, but you might have thought it was at the time. I'd like to ask you to clarify, so I know exactly what you meant by your comment.

Either way thanks to all you guys for all of the helpful comments and knowledge that I can use.

[TelePaul]

Originally Posted by jrhager84

I'm not sure if I follow. Here's what I want to do:

Run my drum mics DIRECTLY into the firestudio (or out through the outs on my mackie) into the computer

Mackie => outs => Firestudio => DAW

With my 1010lt, I'd need special unbalanced 1/4" to RCA wires made (to the tune of ~150 dollars) to go from my direct outs to the inputs of the 1010 (not my first choice) which also means I'm STUCK with 8 outs (my mackie only has 8 outs) and my drums need 11 tracks (eventually, I'm not recording my addt'l 3 toms)

With the firestudio, I could go from either the 1/4" outs of my board to the firestudio, or just go directly into the firestudio (I'm only looking for a dry signal anyways) I can EQ/effect the drums in post. I could also buy more firestudios, and have more pres to work with, and have no limitation in tracks, OR special cables, and also has the functionality of a headphone amp (~125 bucks)

Plus is comes w/ a software suite I could actually use (which I'm also debating either a UAD-1 or LM setup) which would also have software I could use.

You need to decide whether your mixer pres are better than the Firestudio pres. If the Firestudio pres are better - and I hear they're very nice - there's no point in going through the mixer if you're gonna mix and process after recording anyway. I'm pretty sure you can use external processors wth Firestudo too, I'll have to check. Plus, like you said, with the Firestudio, you have more pres available. I dont have one, and that should be stressed, but I do love the look of them.

[TelePaul]

Originally Posted by chestwick91

yeah you got most of the gear...but is the knoeledge there?

What's this about?